Was it really impossible to defeat Morgoth?

[Ithrynluin]

Dagor Aglareb, the third great battle of the Wars of Beleriand, was a huge victory for the Noldor, as they wiped out every single ork in Morgoth's army. After that, the so called "Siege of Angband" ensued, which lasted for almost 400 years.

Now this made me wonder, why did the elves not make an effort to push all the way to Angband? Could they have done it?

JRRT does not seem to think so in The Silmarillion:

Of the Return of the Noldor
Yet the Noldor could not capture Angband, nor could they regain the Silmarils; and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils, and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies. Nor could the stronghold of Morgoth be ever wholly encircled: for the Iron Mountains, from whose great curving wall the towers of Thangorodrim were thrust forward, defended it upon either side, and were impassable to the Noldor, because of their snow and ice. Thus in his rear and to the north Morgoth had no foes, and by that way his spies at times went out, and came by devious routes into Beleriand.

He does not really give specific reasons why they could not capture it, however.

Anyway, why would they need or want to encircle his stronghold? Would it not be enough to simply besiege the front gates of Angband and start from there?

Also, I am not speaking merely of the Noldor, but of a unity between them, the Sindar and the Dwarves (Men were not part of the equation yet), combining their strength to achieve this. Let's just theorize that they could put aside their differences and work together. Why could it not be achieved then?

A hundred years after the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth wanted to catch Fingolfin at unawares, so he launched a sneak attack that went around the mountains and attempted to enter Hithlum through the Firth of Drengist. However, their intentions were discovered and they were destroyed. This ork host was not large enough, which is why this battle was not counted among the great ones. Which makes me think - if this was the best Morgoth could muster in a hundred years, wouldn't this have clued the good peoples that it was time to assault him, to at least try? Or how about this, another hundred years later:

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen. Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years. Fingon won great praise, and the Noldor rejoiced; for few foresaw the full meaning and threat of this new thing. But Morgoth was ill-pleased that Glaurung had disclosed himself over-soon; and after his defeat there was the Long Peace of wellnigh two hundred years.

Obviously, Morgoth spent all this time plotting how to defeat the elves, for the orks were not nearly a strong enough weapon to pit against them. The good peoples had the advantage of Glaurung, the first of one of the biggest threats to come, revealing himself prematurely; they defeated this first dragon, but still they did not take any kind of hint from this, but instead waited for another two hundred years, giving Morgoth ample time to perfect this new devilry and come up with only Eru knows what else. Huh.

Did the Noldor & co. simply fail to read all these clues and just take action?

Or were they certain no power short of the Valar could attempt to storm Angband? If this was the case, how where they certain their attempts would fail if they had never tried it?

 

[YayGollum]

So they figured that it was a good time to merely defend and restock their own armies? Sure, the way you write it, it looks like it would have been a good time to rudely burst through the front door. But oh well. Too many Balrogs and werewolves to worry about?

 

[Snaga]

Of course, even if you got past the balrogs and the werewolves, you would still have Morgoth himself to deal with. Fingolfin hurt him a little, much later on. But by then, of course, he must have depleted his strength quite a bit in building up his forces. So, at near full strength, I thinking he might have packed quite a punch!

 

[Finrod Felagund]

You make a good point although in the chapter Of the ruin of Beleriand it is said that Fingolfin did ponder upon an assault on Angband but was not listened to properly because the Noldor were content with things as they were and were sure their realms would last and were slow to begin an assault in which many would surely perish whether they won or lost. Although Angrod and Aegnor agreed with him few of the other cheiftans of the Noldor did, especially not Feanor's sons. Also the chance of the Sindar helping was very small as they trusted in the girdle of Melian and didn't like the Noldor much. And remember the Noldor couldn't actually kill Morgoth.

 

[Ithrynluin]

YayGollum and Snaga,

I agree that the many creatures of Morgoth, the Balrogs most of all, would prove to be a formidable challenge for the Noldor; and you're probably right that Morgoth was physically stronger at that point; still, the Noldor were relatively "freshly" come out of Valinor, they were strong and valiant and there were many of them, and I think they could have been a match for all of those eventually, even if they suffered heavy losses in the process.

But perhaps WHAT, as opposed to WHO, they would be sieging was equally or even more important in this scenario, seeing how Angband consisted of a multitude of tunnels and underground halls, some probably very deep underground, so there might have been a huge possibility of getting lost, sidetracked or divided, giving Morgoth a bigger chance of utilizing the divide and conquer tactic. Also, assaulting an enormous collection of tunnels (as opposed to an above ground fortress such as, say, Minas Tirith) may not be as easy and straightforward as one might like to think, because the main centre of enemy power, as it were, was rather ambiguous, and Morgoth could launch sorties from virtually any direction -- he was on his home turf after all.

Finrod,

Thanks for reminding me about that quote. Here it is in full:

Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
Now Fingolfin, King of the North, and High King of the Noldor, seeing that his people were become numerous and strong, and that the Men allied to them were many and valiant, pondered once more an assault upon Angband; for he knew that they lived in danger while the circle of the siege was incomplete, and Morgoth was free to labour in his deep mines, devising what evils none could foretell ere he should reveal them. This counsel was wise according to the measure of his knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed. But because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the Noldor were content with things as they were, trusting them to last, and slow to begin an assault in which many must surely perish were it in victory or in defeat Therefore they were little disposed to hearken to Fingolfin, and the sons of Fëanor at that time least of all. Among the chieftains of the Noldor Angrod and Aegnor alone were of like mind with the King; for they dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought. Thus the designs of Fingolfin came to naught, and the land had peace yet for a while.

The bolded part especially is very gloomy and seems to dispose of any theories whether the Noldor could ever defeat Morgoth on their own. However, this quote refers to

a) a much later point in time than the one in my initial post, and Morgoth had ample time to prepare and build up his forces during this period of peace when his foes were seemingly apathetic.

b) only the Noldor, and I pondered a hypothetical unison of not only all of the Noldor, but the added power of the Sindar and the dwarves as well. Though this may seem like nitpicking, and the author may have actually meant that no force short of the armies of the Valar could successfully battle Morgoth, the wording is loose enough to allow this theory to be squeezed through.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, did anyone have any idea of how big and scary that Angband place was, especially at the time you're writing about? Mostly writing ---> the lack of knowledge along the lines of Mel's hideout most probably wouldn't have scared those crazy elves away from attempting to assault it. They were crazy. They'd go for it. Reconnaissance? Mel was the guy who invented that, which made it evil, to them. Sure, if they knew more about his place, they might have been a bit more hesitant.

Anyways, not apathetic, merely content and watchful. They didn't have enough experience with how quickly Mel could build his resources back up, or with how much extra he was holding back (a tragic habit implanted by Eru, merely to make the movie longer).

 

[Ithrynluin]

Yes, I think the simplest and best explanation as to why most of the Noldor were happy to do nothing was lack of experience and lack of knowledge about their enemy. Perhaps this also mirrors the elves' unwillingness to accept change and desire to slow time down.

But you haven't answered my main question. How successful, or not, could the Noldor/Sindar/dwarf combo have been against Morgoth had they launched an attack at the time just after the third battle? Could they have taken Morgoth? If not, how far do you think they could have made it?

 

[YayGollum]

Ah. Whoops. I must have missed those questions in others.

Answer to the first ---> Not entirely. Mel would see such things coming and would secret all kinds of superly cool stuff down in his less obvious tunnels.

To the second ---> Nope. Craziness. He's too cool. The only reason the Valar types got him in the end was because he wanted to go. *crosses arms and thrusts nose into the air, defiantly* Yep. He's out in the Void, recruiting. Lots of Ainur out there.

To the third ---> Um, three miles underground, but only three feet from the front door, due to stairs? Those Balrogs were obviously very easy to kill, so lots of them would have been killed. They wouldn't have gotten close to Mel. Although you wrote that most Orcs were gone, he'd still have his reserves for breeding, as well as plenty of nassty elfs who he was messing with. Vampires and werewolves, Ainur of all persuasions. Trolls yet? I don't know. The elves would have lots to brag about, certainly. Lots of feasts on great victories, lots of buddies between kingdoms made, a few pointing out that the never got Mel, and that they should saunter back underground, eventually, but lots more merely shrugging and saying things like, "Ah, don't worry about it. What's he got now? Bitterness? Oh, we shake in our elfy boots at that? Ha! Let him come! Have a pastry!"

 

[Bucky]

I think you folks miss a point that can be seen in our own human history:

'Good' does not historically attack 'evil', it's the other way around.
Evil forces build up while 'good' apethetically does little to prepare for the Day of Evil until it falls on them like a theif in the night.
Then, woe to them.....

Also, the Elves had the foreknoledge of hearing the Doom of The Noldor, although it does say that they wouldn't understand it until those things came to pass.
However, the question asked here wasn't 'Could the Elves THINK they could win?', it was 'COULD THE ELVES WIN?", and The Doom of The Noldor proves beyond a doubt that they could not win a war with Morgoth.

As far as the question of whether there were trolls during The Seige of Angband, the first mention of trolls is in the Fifth Battle:

'And it is sung that the axe (of Hurin) smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered.....'

No mention is given here of how the trolls could be outside & not be turned into stone - the Olog-Hai were not bred by Sauron yet.
But in the words of Christopher Tolkien, "A complete consistency is not to be looked for" in The Simarillion.

The conclusion on Trolls origion is that they were, as Treebeard said, "Made in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves", & probably the same slow, painful way by Morgoth.
As for the time, no guess can be made other than the statement of Morgoth perceiving that Orcs alone were no match for The Eldar indicates that Trolls were not available until some time around The Fifth Battle.

 

[nodnarb]

i dont think it was possible to defeat him as in killing him..i do believe tho that they could of at least drove him out of angband..but he would of likely just build a new fortress somewhere else to make war from

 

[Illuin]

Well, there was Melian, Luthien, and so many mighty Elves, Men, and Dwarfs; that I believe would have undeniably sent Morgoth running away with his tail between his legs. The problem was the “civil war” within. Just look at the country I reside in; the USA. The leadership (as sad as it is) is not the primary reason for the “state of the union”; as it were. It’s the fighting within that is the true cause of the mess. How silmaril....um...I mean similar are Feanor and Bush?

This indeed is a statement that should probably be posted in that project evil place. However, I don’t wish to take a petty light-hearted analogy like this that far. I’ve viewed that forum…..and yikes…it certainly isn’t for me. I would much rather kick around fantasy and fun. Nonetheless, Morgoth would have probably lost if it were not for the internal bickering .

 

[Tar-Surion]

After the strategic situation became stable after the rising of the sun Morgoth's defeat would have been inevitable if he hadn't been possessed of the powers of a god.

He controlled nothing except Angband while the Elves controlled a whole rich and fertile land bursting with life, needing only a little care and tending to make it arable. Elvish populations should have burgeoned rapidly into the ten of millions while Morgoth's orcs should have starved to death in their icy, barren tunnels.

Instead the opposite happened. The Elves, beset by a reluctance to reproduce that seems to have afflicted most of the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, failed to make use of their bounty to raise their numbers so high as to put themselves beyond challenge.

Morgoth on the other hand, possessed of no food supply or agriculture whatever, somehow created huge armies or orcs, balrogs, trolls and dragons. How, one wants to know? Clearly by use of his supernatural powers, and it took him four-hundred years to do it. Since there is no such thing as a free lunch it must have drained this power, leaving him weakened and vulnerable.

Once the Siege of Angband was broken and the Orcs were free to forage in the Elven and Human lands (that is eat the inhabitants thereof) this drain on Morgoth would have lessened, as they would have become self-supporting and been able to multiply rapidly. This was an one-time bounty and once these lands were ravaged and depopulated Morgoth's decline would have continued.

There is some evidence that towards the end he could no longer properly control or supply his bloated armies. His failure to finish off the last Elf settlements after the fall of Gondolin, might be interpreted as such; the rather poor showing of the Orcs in the Great Battle might be also.

This means that the Elves could win by keeping him penned up in Angband, or at least out of the Elf-Kingdoms, until his batteries ran out; which they could easily done if they had increased their population by an order of magnitude or so, not too hard for a species with a negligible death-rate and no disease mortality at all.

Had the Elves quantity to match their quality, Morgoth would have ended his days as a lonely, impotent cave-troll.

 

[Illuin]

impotent cave-troll.

HaHa.

This is true. I also think the lonely impotent cave-troll fate would have been possible even with the same numbers, but without the internal fighting and external pride.

 

[YayGollum]

*sniff* Poor Mel. I sense a lack of respect for the guy.

Firstly, did Tolkien write that there was little for the Orcs to eat? I don't remember much on that subject. Sure, I also don't remember much being written about Mel using his evil plant and animal corrupting powers (since he had powers of every type) to invent stuff hardy and disgusting enough for his people to eat. Also, while adapting the elves to suit his needs, he could have rehauled their digestive systems so that they'd be more likely to survive with whatever they had. All kinds of things are possible. And I don't remember anything about a large boost in the Orcish population. Weren't they always multiplying rapidly? Argh. Dwarvish and Orcish agriculture craziness!

And secondly, no, I don't think that Mel would have been so easily defeated if the good guys had larger litters. More people means more for Mel to mess with. Tolkien wrote of a few times when shapeshifters swayed opinions. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of times when they tried and failed, so it wasn't written about. Also, with the good guy habit of leaving things alone until they come to kill them, they would have spread out and explored the rest of Middle Earth earlier.

 

[Tar-Surion]

*sniff* Poor Mel. I sense a lack of respect for the guy.

Yep, not a fan.

And I don't remember anything about a large boost in the Orcish population. Weren't they always multiplying rapidly?

Silmarillion p 251: "And there was mustered the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, which had become great beyond count, and Angfaulith could not contain it." Most organisms can breed indefinitely as long as they have food and living-space, what limits them is habitat, competitors and food-supply. Morgoth would have had to keep the lid on Orcish numbers during the Siege of Angband as there were only so many he could sustain, even if he had them in some kind of suspended animation. Once they were out in the Elf-Kingdoms they could breed wildly until the food ran out, which they did, and it did.

And secondly, no, I don't think that Mel would have been so easily defeated if the good guys had larger litters. More people means more for Mel to mess with.

True, but also more people to mess with Morgoth. Imagine the Nirnath Arnodiad with three times the number of Elves. It would still be unnumbered tears but they would have been mostly Orcish.

 

[YayGollum]

Not a fan of Mel? The greatest? What, just because he tried to liven things up a little? You are more of a Manwe fan, then? The spirit of the teacher's pet?

Ah, but what was Anfauglith (I had to check the spelling. Yours looked weird) to Angband? He had all kinds of tunnels down there.

Also, if there had been more good guys, Mel would have dealt with it. He keeping track. If only those Valar types had kept to their backwoods!

 

[Tar-Surion]

Not a fan of Mel? The greatest? What, just because he tried to liven things up a little?

Actually he wanted to kill everyone, preferably after prolonged torture. If you think genocide, murder, torture and oppression "liven things up" I'm glad I don't live next door to you.

You are more of a Manwe fan, then? The spirit of the teacher's pet?

Well actually I am a teacher and I encourage teacher's pets. They make my life easier and it's good for them to develop positive relationships with benign authority figures. If you ever rise to a position of authority you'll know exactly what I mean.

If only those Valar types had kept to their backwoods!

They would have been entirely remiss in their duty if they permitted this psychopathic god to dominate and torture the Children of Illuvatar forever.

I just wish they had found away to remove Morgoth without destroying the whole of Belariand: sounds like overkill to me.

 

[YayGollum]

Hm! So you don't think that genocide, murder, torture, and oppression liven things up? Those are totally enlivening activities. Livening things up has nothing to do with making people happy. Also, they make for better stories. You know. Dramatic tension, eh? Quite nice. Mel was an entertaining character to read about. As a matter of course, I wouldn't want to live next to someone who enjoyed such activities in real life. Craziness.

Towards teacher's pets, should I assume that the answer to my question was an affirmative? Either way, sure, I understand that teacher's pets have their good points as well as bad. I was merely writing that Mel is more interesting than Manwe. I can see more of a reason to enjoy reading about Mel than Manwe. When it comes to real life, though, I'd still prefer a Mel-like student to a Manwe-esque one. Manwe had no spark of intelligence. He was the Mouth of Eru. He was incapable of understanding evil, a tragic handicap. Mel, on the other paw, challenged everything he saw. He was a big fan of independent studies. The spirit of creativity, no rules barred him from his goals. To teach those two? To direct their energies? Manwe can parrot quite nicely. He'll never disagree and can even set a shining example of how to play by the book. Mel would be more challenging, which is part of the fun. You'll both learn something.

By the way, you don't teach your students to take characters in a book so seriously, do you? Now, mayhaps if Mel wasn't so obviously dangerous, warnings and derision would make sense. But, no. Tolkien made his motivations pretty transparent. If only anyone had taken the time to steer him towards some more productive paths.

 

[Illuin]

"If only anyone had taken the time to steer him towards some more productive paths. "

Don’t worry TS; Yay’s wit must be observed and analyzed for some time; but he’s (in reality) on your side. The point is that Tolkien wouldn’t have gotten very far with Manwe being the star of the show

PS - I’m entirely bored with the non-specific emoticons we have at our disposal, so I’m going elsewhere when I wish to express something more accurately

 

[Persephone]

I think the better question here was, why did Eru allow Morgoth to continue with his existence? Is he indifferent to his evil? Did he care at all? He could have just removed him from existence.

P.s. if this has been presented before, sorry. Just wanted to join in on the discussion. And Illuin, thanks for the additional emoticons site