Was Rivendell Revered After the Fourth Age?

[CirdanLinweilin]

Good-den!

So, we know that following the destruction of the One Ring at the end of the Third Age, Elrond's ring lost its power and he tired of Middle-earth. Thus at the beginning of the Fourth Age, Elrond, and many of his household, left Rivendell to sail for Valinor from the Grey Havens. Though its people were diminished, Rivendell was maintained, for a while, by Elladan and Elrohir. They were later joined by Celeborn, who left Lórien within a few years of Galadriel's departure with Elrond's party. It is not known when Rivendell was finally abandoned, but shortly before he died in F.A. 120 Aragorn said to Arwen that "none now walk" in the garden of Elrond.

I'm thinking two things,
First off, do you think Aragorn, as king potentially held Rivendell almost in a sacred manner, holding it up as a place of honor, maybe perhaps forbidding entry to said place?

Secondly, after Aragorn's and Arwen's deaths, do you think Rivendell became a place of mystery to the later Men of Middle-earth, who might not have known the history of that place? It could have been a place told of in ghost stories to young children, or almost a fantasy ghost town...basically, I'm asking if it became a place people were curious about but too afraid to approach and enter.

Thoughts?

CL.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

I'm adding this little blurb I wrote, to add to the discussion:

"Standing in a place known only in Legend of song as Cloven-dell, those that must have dwelt here hath departed to The West long ago., I stand in silent whispers and the rush of the falls, winds softly coo. As I closeth mine eyes, and listen with the senses of a Hawk, you could almost hear the voices on the wind, long gone into the West, but traces of faint mirth and cheer still reside in these Hallowed Halls, long abandoned by the peoples of story and song, It is said: One could still hear the voice of a small creature, not of his own, taking upon his light shoulders a task too much of a daunting mass for such a small one to carry...

Whatever the case may be, and whoever dwelt in this strange, ghostly place, one could not help but feel the peace that still resides in this place, as the rivers rush, and the falls fall, and the wind coos, you could hear such sweet music...but alas! It is too swiftly gone, as like a sparrow that leaveth it's nest for better lodgings. Oh, that I wish I could know these peoples of legend and Myth!

Alas, that is a time long gone into the wind, I now reside here, ready to depart myself. As I leave I sing:
'The wind catches me and releases me, into the wind I go, into the wind, into the wind, to the West I go, in the West I reside, for all the days of my life.'
"

Hope you enjoyed that. It's more of a short fanfic that anything. It's supposed to take place years after Aragorn and Arwen's deaths.

 

[Starbrow]

Interesting question.
I can't imagine Aragorn forbidding entry into Rivendell. He was not the ruler there and would have no right to do so.
I think Rivendell was a mystery to much of mankind even when Elrond was there. For example, Boromir didn't know much about it before he went there.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Good points and true. Yes, there was much estrangement between Elves and Men during that time. I'm just curious as to what happened to Rivendell after all the Elves sailed off into the western sunset. What happened to the buildings? The Last Homely House? I'm just speculating.

CL

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Rivendell (and Lothlorien, for that matter) would slowly decade and disappear into slow oblivion even though a long presence of Elves would remain noticeable in those lands.

By comparison, Eregion gave this same impression to the Fellowship as they crossed the Hollin Ridge and entered the former lands of Elves, which had long before been deserted by them. This is what Gandalf and Legolas said:

‘To the end of the journey – in the end,’ said Gandalf. ‘[..] I think we will rest here, not only today but tonight as well. There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.’

‘That is true,’ said Legolas. ‘But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.’​

 

[Azrubêl]

Interesting question.
I can't imagine Aragorn forbidding entry into Rivendell. He was not the ruler there and would have no right to do so.
I think Rivendell was a mystery to much of mankind even when Elrond was there. For example, Boromir didn't know much about it before he went there.

I agree that it doesn't seem likely that Aragorn would forbid entry there. I wonder though, geographically, if it would fall under his domain as part of the united kingdoms?

It seems likely that in the Fourth Age, very few would remember it, let alone be able to find it.

 

[Azrubêl]

Rivendell (and Lothlorien, for that matter) would slowly decade and disappear into slow oblivion even though a long presence of Elves would remain noticeable in those lands.

By comparison, Eregion gave this same impression to the Fellowship as they crossed the Hollin Ridge and entered the former lands of Elves, which had long before been deserted by them. This is what Gandalf and Legolas said:

‘To the end of the journey – in the end,’ said Gandalf. ‘[..] I think we will rest here, not only today but tonight as well. There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.’

‘That is true,’ said Legolas. ‘But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.’​

I think that idea of "fading" is an interesting motif in Tolkien's writing. I know characters at various points throughout history were described in a similar way. My impression is that it involves the place fading into the natural environment in some way, as if there is a purity about it, as opposed to the place being corrupted. It makes sense then that there would be some memory of it there, until evil would eventually come and "erase" the memory.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm enjoying this conversation!


CL

 

[Rilien]

I think that idea of "fading" is an interesting motif in Tolkien's writing.

I agree. The idea of fading or decaying or falling pervades all of Tolkien's stories. Older things are more powerful. Elves and men both were greater at one time but have dwindled (for men, not dwindled in number but rather in stature and nobility). Sometimes there is a brief rise to greatness (Aragorn, for example) but it isn't lasting or universal, and it seems to happen because there is some link to the remote past (his high ancestry). Even the evil creatures seem to have been greater in the earlier times.

I can't recall ever having seen Tolkien comment on the fate of Rivendell, but I would guess that he would have it slowly fade away, forsaken and eventually forgotten by nearly everyone.

 

[Azrubêl]

I agree. The idea of fading or decaying or falling pervades all of Tolkien's stories. Older things are more powerful. Elves and men both were greater at one time but have dwindled (for men, not dwindled in number but rather in stature and nobility). Sometimes there is a brief rise to greatness (Aragorn, for example) but it isn't lasting or universal, and it seems to happen because there is some link to the remote past (his high ancestry). Even the evil creatures seem to have been greater in the earlier times.

That's a good point. From the beginning when there was just one, the Valar came and then the children. Fading plays a big role in Tolkien's whole history of Arda from the firstborn all the way through the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Valandil]

Interesting topic.

I also don't think Aragorn would have even tried to forbid entrance to Rivendell. Even making that sort of effort in a remote area would have taken a lot of effort and resources. And then there's the need to have the mindset.

Remember though, that the entrance to Rivendell was hard to find. Do you think this was in part a product of natural features, or almost entirely due to the power of the Ring held by Elrond? I might venture to guess some of both. Also - there were very few people at all in the area at the time. Mostly Dunedain, and I think they would have relocated to the restored Annuminas - so that perhaps none of them remained in the vicinity.

Makes me wonder again what became of Celeborn, Elladan and Elrohir. Did they ultimately leave Middle Earth, maybe with Cirdan and/or Sam, maybe before, maybe on their own (making their own ship, a la Legolas)? Or did they set off to wandering about Middle Earth? Or did they continue, maybe with a handful of other Elves, to linger in Rivendell, perhaps unknown to Aragorn or faded into insignificance?

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Good points, Valandil,
Yes, Rivendell was already hard to find, so now I don't see Aragorn doing much there.

I've always wondered that too. I'm very sure that Elrond missed his sons, and that Galadriel missed her husband. Or, since they were in Valinor, did they even need their presence?

CL

 

[Azrubêl]

Remember though, that the entrance to Rivendell was hard to find. Do you think this was in part a product of natural features, or almost entirely due to the power of the Ring held by Elrond? I might venture to guess some of both. Also - there were very few people at all in the area at the time. Mostly Dunedain, and I think they would have relocated to the restored Annuminas - so that perhaps none of them remained in the vicinity.

My impression of Rivendell being in a hidden valley means that it was hidden completely by its physical location, and that Elrond and his ring would help protect it from force. I don't know for sure though!

Makes me wonder again what became of Celeborn, Elladan and Elrohir. Did they ultimately leave Middle Earth, maybe with Cirdan and/or Sam, maybe before, maybe on their own (making their own ship, a la Legolas)? Or did they set off to wandering about Middle Earth? Or did they continue, maybe with a handful of other Elves, to linger in Rivendell, perhaps unknown to Aragorn or faded into insignificance?

It says somewhere that Celeborn sailed west in the early Fourth Age, and I'm pretty sure that all the elves did eventually too. Anyone have a source on whether all the elves sailed west in the Fourth Age? According to TolkienGateway, Cirdan sailed west on the last ship to leave Middle-earth.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Concerning Elladan and Elrohir, Tolkien Gateway states:

After the War of the Ring, little is known of the brothers' fate. They returned to their father's house at Rivendell, and remained there even after he had passed across the Sea.[5] Like their sister Arwen, the sons of Elrond Half-elven were granted the choice of whether to leave Middle-earth for the Undying Lands, or remain there and become mortal as men. So they chose for a time at least, to stay in Middle-earth for reasons unknown.

 

[Ingolmin]

I think that Aragorn, as a King of Gondor and Arnor would have held Rivendell as a place of honour, but not forbidding entry to the place. Aragorn would have surely gone at times there when he went to meet his friends in the Shire. Still there would be less goings there since Elladan and Elrohir may have lived there, and though the war had ended, still the estrangement between men and Eldar would not have diminished. This is because most elves were enjoying in Valinor. Only few were staying, such as Wood Elves, and sons of Elrond and Celeborn. After Aragorn, I think Eldarion would consider Rivendell as an honourary place, since his father was fostered there and it was his mother's home, maybe he would have even taken it as a part of the kingdom, but kept it as a sacred place. After Eldarion, the later kings could have thought it mysterious, an ELVISH PLACE because at that time all contact with elves would have been lost. And elves would have been a matter of lore among them and Rivendell a kind of museum. They would have surely avoided ruling there.
If any people would have went there, it would have been the kings to honour their fathers( Dunedain, Elrond), and to remember that they were Numenoreans, and had the blood of Elendil in them. It would always inspire them to be good kings until the end(Dagor Dagorath or maybe before).

This is just theorising based on facts, intuition and all the knowledge I have about Middle Earth.

I am Ingolmin, a loremaster and I claim my descent from Elrond Halfelven himself. You can trust me.

Thanks