Was the Council of 🧝Elrond a Farce?

Originally posted by Goroshimura
a) Whether or not Frodo would accept his divine "appointment"
b) Whether or not the Free peoples of the world would cooperate with a strategy that involved putting a great deal of trust in providence (rather than trusting, say, merely in the military power of Minas Tirith, or attempting to put off dealing with this problem and leaving it to another generation....)

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I think Goro has a point here.

a) Frodo had to take the task on his own, without persuasion from Gandalf and Elrond, and with a clear undestanding of the alternatives. Frodo needed the council of Elrond to help him decide.

b) The "free people" had to be involved. The council, and afterwards the fellowship, represent all those who still confront Sauron. It is not by chance that there are representatives of all free people there. Also remember that people like Thranduil or Dain needed to get the update, or they might blunder. Their part is just almost a footnote at the end of ROTK, but they did great battling Sauron and saved the North at the end.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I would be disappointed if there were not some way you could angle the influence of the Almighty in these actions. However, bar Gandalf saying he was 'meant to find it', there is no other relevance or even reference to any interjection by Iluvatar.

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"You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." -- Gandalf

"In this meeting there may be more than chance, but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much." -- Gildor

"Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you." -- Tom Bombadil

"That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe so that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world." -- Elrond

"If I understand aright all that I have heard, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will." --Elrond

"It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake. But that is not the only part they have to play." -- Aragorn

"You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune as it is called." -- Gandalf

So why do I keep playing the "providence card?"

It's the only way to defend Tolkien when these sorts of threads pop up:

Was the Council of Elrond a Farce?
Was Gandalf a Machiavellian proponent of Realpolitic?
Did Aragorn make a stupid decision at Parth Galen?
Aren't the odds of event x happening exceedingly slim?

These sorts of arguments tend to be brought up with some sort of macho "I'm a realist" attitude-- with maybe also a heaping insinuation that Tolkien merely was a hack that wrote scenes in certain ways just to make the plot work out.

My personal opinion is that such insinuations are rooted in a combination of:

a) ignorance of the more subtle (yet persistent) themes of Tolkien's work
b) a tacit rejection of the most basic axioms that underlie the world of middle earth

The notion of Providence is the underlying theme that causes the work to cohere. Read the work with a cynical Postmodernist frame of mind, and you'll probably have the same sort of response as a certain reviewer from The Nation. (In which case, you may prefer discussing Star Trek or The Fountainhead or something....)

Please forgive my ignorance of Tolkiens work, little did I know that all these years I was simply playing up my machismo. That is a constant battle I have daily and one day I may venture out of my blinkered closet.

a) ignorance of the more subtle (yet persistent) themes of Tolkien's work

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b) a tacit rejection of the most basic axioms that underlie the world of middle earth

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Once again I fear that I have missed the plot entirely so I would ask you Goroshima to elaborate and define the underlying tone and subtleness of Tolkiens work that has clearly escaped me.

Though I will make this clear before we enter deeper into this debate; when I describe devine intervention, it is solely for the purpose of defining that which is the hand of Iluvatar (which you attribute to being the 'One God' equivalent) and that which may be guided by the Valar (whom I consider the true powers of Arda) themselves. The difference is succinct, meaning that all the quotes you have so generously provided do not suggest that any aspect of intervention can be directly accorded to Iluvatar himself. So I will state this with clarity; my interpretation of devine intervention is solely through the power and thoughts of the Valar, who were the powers within Arda.

But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

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So, before one begins to quote those 'mysterious ways', one must consider the autonomy of Arda. This of course rests in the hands of the Valar.

May I also point out Goroshima, that I was not trying to belittle or demean your arguement, for we have covered this ground often, and I will inherently disagree with you........until you finally convince me

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce.

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Do you still hold to this opinion even after examining the significance of the Providential themes of the chapter?

(For now it makes no difference to me whether it was Iluvatar or the Valar-- either way the theme of higher spiritual powers intervening in history is still being asserted here. Concurrently with that is the balancing theme of Free Will-- in that the Free Peoples can choose to cooperate with the Providential forces OR go their own way. I don't think such a scene can be considered a farce unless you bring a tacit assumption with you to the book that determining your response to the hand of "Providence" is something only for sissies and simpletons to be doing.)

Why Ancalagon? He provided you with the very quotes I would have. If Tolkien was not providing us to the greatest clue that the will of Eru had indeed entered into the mix, I don't know what he was doing. Every indication is that chance/fate/pre-destination was working overtime. How does your great intellect interpret Tokien's inferences through the voices of his characters?

Ok Grond, read my post and my reasoning that none of these quotes can be directly attributed to Eru, yet more likely they can be attributed to the Valar. Once you have done your homework come back and I'll mark it for you!

I agree with Goroshimura there is an element of Providence in the book, and the CoE was the place were everything got together.

Elrond had already decided what had to be done

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Maybe elrond knwe what has to be done (destroy the ring) but there were other that can give opinion like Aragorn an Gandalf remember that This Wizard was the Chief in the war against Sauron.

Providence relates to the direct interjection of the 'One God', however in the case of Tolkiens realm, the interjection of the Valar is more apparent and more likely. Prove Iluvatars direct interjection and I will accept this arguement without so much as a whimper.

What about what Goroshimura posted?

"You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." -- Gandalf

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for example. Ok Let not call it providence but there was something else behind the events.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
So I will state this with clarity; my interpretation of devine intervention is solely through the power and thoughts of the Valar, who were the powers within Arda.

So, before one begins to quote those 'mysterious ways', one must consider the autonomy of Arda. This of course rests in the hands of the Valar.

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But what did the "Powers of Arda" do when confronted with the fleets of Ar-Pharazon?

"Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea...."

The Valar are powers, yes... but when compared to Iluvatar they are mere technicians-- not engineers or authors.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the them which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

Though Faramir's men call on the Valar to turn an oliphant aside, these Powers are still yet merely servants of the One. All providential activity in ME has its source in Iluvatar:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Kinda reminds you of Gollum, Saurman, and Sauron, doesn't it?

(Note the similarity in the tone of these passages to the King James Old Testament.)

Once again I fear that I have missed the plot entirely so I would ask you Goroshima to elaborate and define the underlying tone and subtleness of Tolkiens work that has clearly escaped me.

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Sure:

The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill. These twin themes culminate into an even greater theme: that Evil is in reality powerless in that while it contributes to it's own downfall it inadvertantly ends up glorifying the Creator by serving as His instrument.

Originally posted by Goroshimura
...The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill. These twin themes culminate into an even greater theme: that Evil is in reality powerless in that while it contributes to it's own downfall it inadvertantly ends up glorifying the Creator by serving as His instrument.

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Ouch! I think you got through Anc's armour with that one.

Tolkien Letter;

...As for any inner meaning or 'message,' it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches: but its main theme was settled from the outset by the inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and The Hobbit...Other arrangements could be devised acccording to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old an wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of the readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory;' but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

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Ok, old quote, seem meaning. I disagree with the use of 'providence' for the simple fact that within Arda, the major powers were the Valar. They, by design, direct and manipulate the more mysterious occurances within the story. Yet, it must also be pointed out that many of these occurances could just as easily be attributed to 'faeries, leprachauns, witches, wizards, banshees, poltergeists' to name but a few non-christian mythological entities, which of course this work also is.

However, let's be clear on your meaning of 'providence', for your consider that only a monothestic God (or Christian God) is influencing the unfolding tales of Middle-Earth. Therefore you cannot accept that any action of the Valar is an action without the intention of Eru, ultimately.

...The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill.

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Surely then, if the Valar, or any other being cannot make decisions without them being directed by Iluvatar, then they do not have freewill at all. Therefore your summation is a complete contradiction.

Re: Re: Was the Council of Elrond a Farce?

"The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce." -- Ancalagon

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Do you still hold to this opinion even after examining the significance of the Providential themes of the chapter?

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I answer your questions... why won't you answer mine??

Originally posted by Ancalagon
However, let's be clear on your meaning of 'providence', for your consider that only a monothestic God (or Christian God) is influencing the unfolding tales of Middle-Earth. Therefore you cannot accept that any action of the Valar is an action without the intention of Eru, ultimately.

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That's what Melkor found out:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Melkor had a choice to serve Iluvatar or Rebel. And all the Free Peoples at the CoE had the same decsion to make. Frodo did not have to accept his divine appointment. He took up the burden of his own free will.

Therefore your summation is a complete contradiction.

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Is it really?

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

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This quote relates directly to the Ainulindale, the music and creation of Middle-Earth. It does not however affect those decisions thereafter when the Valar actually inherit Middle-Earth. There, they are their own masters and responsible for their own actions. There is no other direct petitioning to Iluvatar save the one you have quoted.

Why is this? Why does Iluvatar not take a more active interest in his creation? Is it because he is not responsible for providence within Arda but the Valar are. What goes on within the confines of Arda is the responsiblity of the Valar, this is their creation, their responsibility and their purpose.

that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

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Then why are there numerous instances where Manwe consults with Eru? Two times that immediately come to mind are the decision to create the Ents and the fate of Numenor. There are others that do not come to mind. It seems the Valar are given dominion up to a certain point. My take on the LotR since I first read it so many years ago was that Eru was taking a hand in the world, using both the Valar and a little thing for which he alone had control... fate! These are my opinions and not substantiated by the book... yet!

And by all the posts that quote intervention whether by Iluvatar or by the Valar only prove that the Council of Elrond was indeed a farce as neither Eru nor the Valar were present and only one Maia and he was of greatly constrained power. So if the decisions as to the path of the Ring and the make-up of the Fellowship is down to the intervention of 'Higher Powers' then this proves that the Council played no real part and therefore was a farce and that even Elrond did little of note as others told him what to do and say.

Why though is it impossible to think that Manwe and the rest of the Valar are responsible for 'moving in mysterious ways', when something unexplainable happens? Furthermore, when Gandalf states that the ring was meant for Bilbo and Frodo, it was the rings decision, not Eru's.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Why though is it impossible to think that Manwe and the rest of the Valar are responsible for 'moving in mysterious ways', when something unexplainable happens? Furthermore, when Gandalf states that the ring was meant for Bilbo and Frodo, it was the rings decision, not Eru's.

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That's crazy!!

The ring wants to get back to Sauron.

Sauron imparted his nature into it. When he came back into power as the Necromancer of Mirkwood, he "summoned" it. The ring responded to Sauron by abandoning Gollum.

And as chance would have it, that was the exact moment that Bilbo happened along. If chance you call it. That was the last thing Sauron (or the ring) would have wanted.

Later when Frodo recieved the ring, it got him into trouble all the time-- because it wanted to reveal the bearer publicly so that it could get back to Sauron.