Was Tom Bombadil Jewish? (A serious thread...)

[BluestEye]

I was reading Tar-Palantir's thread about Tom Bombadil and suddenly a question came to me: "Who gave Tom his name? Why Tom? Why Bombadil?"
I know about Tom Bombadil being J.R.R's son's childhood-doll, but I refer in my question to the Tom Bombadil of Middle-Earth.
Tom is an English name, a short-name to Thomas, right? English names in Middle-Earth are given, as I remember from the story, only to Hobbits. So, did the Hobbits named him Tom? And if they did, what is the name he gave to himself? What was his REAL name?
In the Tokien Companion by David Day it is written that Tom Bombadil was also known as Yarwein Ben-Adar. Where is it written in Tolkien's writtings? And why an Hebrew name like Ben-Adar was given to our dear old Tom Bombadil? (Ben = Son , Adar = Citrus ; Ben Adar = Citrus' Son) And what is Yarwein, and in what language in Middle-Earth is he called by this name?
What is Bombadil and from which language in Middle-Earth came this surname?
Maybe these questions and thier answears can lead to a clue about who Tom was or what is his origins...

Bluest Eye

 

[Walter]

Whether Tom Bomabdil was Jewish or not I do not know. The name you are referring to is mentioned in TFotR - The Council of Elrond:

“I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside."
[CoE P258]

This chapter has undergone several rewritings, in a footnote of an older version it reads:

' "I knew of him," answered Gandalf. "Bombadil's one name. He has called himself by others, suiting himself to the times. Tombombadil's for the Shire-folk. We have seldom met."'

C.T. then notes:

Pencilled scribbles beneath this, difficult to interpret, give other names of Bombadil: Forn for the Dwarves; Yárë for the Elves, and Iaur (see the Etymologies, V.399, stem YA); Erion for the Gnomes; Eldest for m[en]
[The Treason of Isengard - CoE(1) 125]

in the version prior to the final one JRRT wrote:

'I knew of him,' answered the wizard. 'Bombadil is one name. He has called himself others, suiting himself to times and tongues. Tom-bombadil's for the Shirefolk; Erion is for Elves, Forn for the Dwarves, and many names for men. *)...'

and C.T's footnote explains:

*) The reading given is the product of much changing on the manuscript. At first my father wrote: Yárë's for the Elves, Erion is for Gnomes, Forn for the dwarves; and names of Bombadil among Men, all struck out, were Oreald, Orold (Old English: 'very old'), and Frumbarn (Old English: 'first-born’).
[The Treason of Isengard - CoE(2) 152/158FN]

 

[Beorn]

IIRC, Iarwain was word that was used. Iarwain Ben-Adar means (again, IIRC) Oldest and Fatherless...

 

[Walter]

It is supposed to be Sindarin and to mean exactly what Elrond says:

Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless

.
Iarwain Ben-adar = old(est) without father

Cheers

 

[Diabless]

Hebrew words in LOTR

I see what you mean BluestEye. Some of the words in Tolkien seem Hebrew but that might because they are Finnish and sound like Hebrew. I don't know any Finnish but I am Jewish so I sort of know how Hebrew sounds. Some words like this are
Rohirrim (the im is at the end to man plurarl in Hebrew, I think)

Mithrim- is not that water in Hebrew or is that Mythryim.

I am not positive but I see where you're coming from.

 

[BluestEye]

Diabless, thank you for your reply

Actualy, Water in Hebrew is Ma'im. But Mithrim sounds more like Mitzraim, 'Egypt' in Hebrew,

Anyway, you're right, Tolkien's Rohirim always sounded like an Hebrew word. The sufix 'im' is used for Male-Plural names. For an example, 'Binian' in Hebrew is a Building. Many buildings are called: 'Binianim'. Another example: a Mountain in Hebrew is called 'Har'. Many mountains are called: 'Harim'.

Now, Ben-Adar is curiously close to many Jewish surnames, such as: Ben-Basat, Ben-Ezra, Ben-Maimon. Actualy, many Polish surnames wich has the sufix of 'ich' or 'wicz' such as: Sokolowicz and Froimowicz or Froimovich, are built in the same formula. 'ich' or 'wicz' mean "Son of..." so Froimowicz or Froimowicz is actualy "Son of Froim" or in Hebrew: "Ben-Efraim".
Now you can understand why it triggered me when I read about Tom Bombadil's surname: "Ben-Adar"...
If this name is taken from a Jewish origin, Tom's surname can hint that Iarwain was the Son of Adar.
Adar in Hebrew has a number of meanings:

1. (Literary) Glory, Splendor, Majesty.
2. Citrus
3. to respect, to honor, to show deference
4. the Sixth month of the Hebrew calendar

First of all, Adar, the sixth month of the Hebrew calendar is very special. The Christian calendar is built of 12 months and is not related to the moon so each year the Christian calendar keeps having 12 months. But the Hebrew calendar IS built acording to the moon, so each four years an additional month is needed. For some reason I don't know, Adar was chosen to be multiplied, and every four years we have Adar A and Adar B. An interesting month, this Adar...

Tom lives in the Old-Forest. The trees listen to him and he can command them. Funny that Adar means Citrus, no? Maybe he is the Son of a Citrus-Tree?
Also Tom is an Honorable creature. He acts as if he is the Master of the Old-Forest and it's close surroundings. He has a sense of mistery and magic and the four Hobbits show him deference and they even let him take the One Ring for a few minutes, a thing Frodo never thought to do even with close friends such as Aragorn, Merry, Pipin or Sam.
But the most curious meaning is the first one mentioned above: Majesty.
If Iarwain's surname means actualy "Son of his majesty" than it brings us to a quite simple conclusion: Tom Bombadil is the son of Iluvatar, which makes him a Vala or a Maia, like many of us believe...

Well, you can't deny it IS an interesting idea...

Bluest Eye

 

[Diabless]

Wow! Bluest Eye! Great analasys.
Sorry I messed up on the Hebrew. I think I have hear Mitrayim mentioned in prayers. That makes sense now doe n't it. Now we need someone to tell us if Tolkien ever studied Hebrew. Did he? If Bombadil's name is not Hebrew than does anyone care t explain which langage Iarwain Ben-adar does come from? Dude! I just realized something!

If Iarwain Ben-adar is Hebrew then maybe that is because Tolkien was a Catholic and maybe he wanted to have ancient name so he gave him a name that partly relates to the Hebrew poeple were living many years before Christianity came along. Not that that's exactly what's meant, but maybe he wanted to hint that Bombadil was as old as the Jewish or Hebrew people or maybe he just used Hebrew because it's an old language and Tom is old ect..
Any thoughts?
BluestEye?
P.S.- Is your name taken from Toni Morrison's book. I never read it. Is it very good?

 

[BluestEye]

Old Son of a Tree...

Well, I don't know about Tolkien's biography and his religious connections because I haven't read all of his biographies yet...
I've been looking for "Iarwain Ben-Adar" in the Sil's Index, but the name doesn't appear in there. Nonetheless, in the Sil's Appendix I've found this:

iaur - 'old' in Iant Iaur; cf.the Elvish name of Bombadil, Iarwain.

But nothing is said about the rest of his name... There isn't no "...wain" (and I don't know Quenya good enough to know if it's a suffix for "-est" as in 'Oldest', neither anything similar to 'Ben-Adar'.
Someone has a clue about this? Does anyone here know Quenya good enough to answear this question?

An interesting thing, though, is the Elvish-word 'Alda' which means... Tree! Maybe 'Adar' is a form of 'Alda' (or 'Aldar'), so combining the Hebrew signification and the Elvish one, we come again to:

"Son of a Tree" or "Son of a Citrus-Tree"!

BluestEye

 

[Walter]

To connect Adar with "Tree" or "Citrus" is sure an interesting hypothesis, Bluesteye, but probably not more than this. Especially since the translation has already been given in the books, I think it more likely that the (Sindarin) Adar is related to the Quenya atar (father) like in Adanatari (Fathers of Men) or Ilúvatar (All-father)...

The syllable "ata" still means or is part of the word for father in many languages: ata in most slavic languages, Vater german, the english father derives as well from it (to name but a few examples...

 

[Legolam]

I'm not sure if this is any help to this discussion, and it isn't really anything to do with Jewishness, but i thought I'd chip in my tuppenceworth.

Ben is really common in Scots gaelic referring to hills ie Ben Nevis, Ben Lomond. I think it means mountain or something like that. Anyway, definitely a nature theme coming through all of these translations of Bombadil's name

 

[Lantarion]

Bluest, the -wain ending is the superlative suffix in Sindarin; so old + -est = oldest. And therefore iaur+ -wain = Iaurwain.

 

[Diabless]

Originally posted by Walter
To connect Adar with "Tree" or "Citrus" is sure an interesting hypothesis, Bluesteye, but probably not more than this. Especially since the translation has already been given in the books, I think it more likely that the (Sindarin) Adar is related to the Quenya atar (father) like in Adanatari (Fathers of Men) or Ilúvatar (All-father)...

The syllable "ata" still means or is part of the word for father in many languages: ata in most slavic languages, Vater german, the english father derives as well from it (to name but a few examples...

Ok, Walter. You just convinced me that Bombadil is Iluvatar. I am not backing this is up, but this is now my official opinion.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Diabless
Ok, Walter. You just convinced me that Bombadil is Iluvatar. I am not backing this is up, but this is now my official opinion.

It wasn't my intention, but you sure wouldn't be the only one to think this...

 

[Lantarion]

Christ, you think Tom is Ilúvatar because his Sindarin nickname includes a similar element to the name of Eru?! Come on, you really should form opinions on more fact and less flimsy coincidense. No offense, but just having the root ATA in both names doesn't mean they're the same person!

 

[BluestEye]

You can't blame her, Potifex. Think about it... 'Oldest and Fatherless"? Who can that be except Ilu?

BluestEye

P.S.
Thanks for the '-wain' translation

 

[Walter]

Hmmm - I tend to think Ilúvatar is eternal rather than oldest and even if the former implies the latter I do not think a name would be chosen that represents only part of the truth...

 

[Diabless]

Originally posted by Pontifex
Christ, you think Tom is Ilúvatar because his Sindarin nickname includes a similar element to the name of Eru?! Come on, you really should form opinions on more fact and less flimsy coincidense. No offense, but just having the root ATA in both names doesn't mean they're the same person!

Ok, Pontifex you're right. I have seen other threads on who he was and I am not convinced about anything. This question can never be answered unless some new stuff is found (I take it the people who have read and analyzed everything he wrote stil don't know who Tom is) But I would like to believe he is Iluvatar. Maybe that's whyo he is. He's who ever you blieve him to be.
Maybe the reader is supposed to interpret him in their own way.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Diabless
But I would like to believe he is Iluvatar. Maybe that's whyo he is. He's who ever you blieve him to be.
Maybe the reader is supposed to interpret him in their own way.

Exactly, Tolkien wanted to leave the origin of Tom Bombadil (in the LotR) unexplained. In one of his letters he wrote:
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

So, yes, everyone can interpret him the way s/he wants, some interpretations are more likely, others less.

 

[BluestEye]

You miss the point here...

OK, we know why he chose the name of Tom Bombadil. It was the name of his son's doll and he wanted to get it into his stories. We can understand that.

But why IARWAIN BEN-ADAR???

What is 'Iarwain'? Why did he chose this name? And why 'Fatherless'? What does it mean? It seems he had some intention in the Elven-name he chose for our dear Tom... what was this intention?

Nobody knows what Iarwain means?

Bluest Eye

 

[Walter]

Well, I suppose "Iarwain Ben Adar" means: "oldest son of a citrus tree"...