What are you writing about now?

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

And I have to say, @Ent , you've ruined me! (I mean that as a joke). I'm seeing Useless That everywhere, including academic papers and news articles. I'm not always sure how to fix it without going through a bunch of verbal gymnastics, but I'm seeing it everywhere and it's bugging me, lol.

I go through a mental crisis every time I write because of it!
(I'm thankful though because I've definitely improved because of this.)

 

[Ent]

I'm seeing Useless That everywhere

I can't tell you how thankful I am..!! (Well, I could, but Old Entish takes awhile.)

Yes, at times to overcome a 'useless that' does require a little more word dexterity... they can't all just be dropped, though some can.
But the result is a much more meaningful flow.
Often switching the syntax to incorporate an adverbial form is a reliable solution... but not always.

Sometimes sentence restructure... sometimes multiple entence combination to simplify and remove the 'fluff' requiring the 'that', increasing the broader 'flow' is the answer.

So when I say my first step in editing is to 'eliminate useless thats', and as recently, ending up 'touching a manuscript in a thousand places' just working through that part in Round 1, you can see tne value... one gets a really good 'scope' of the work in the first Round, and when we return for Round 2 we're dealing with a much smoother document so can focus on deeper matters.

you will now start seeing Tolkien's many 'useless that' incorporations... yet in his case the multi-layered depth and overall epic grandeur of his work compensate for the flaw.

One can see a significant predilection for 'that' in most of the posts and posters here as well... which is why I always say 'every writing of any kind is an opportunity.'

 

[Vorondil]

you've ruined me! (I mean that as a joke). I'm seeing Useless That everywhere

Yes, its dashed annoying. I'm having the same problem.

 

[Ent]

THE HORRORS OF 'THAT':
To All Of You:
Sorry I would say I am, but well... I am not.
A reduction in 'that' permeating your posts, too, I have seen.
Harder to drop it from your speech you will find it. But worth the results, are the efforts.

Meanwhile:
I must be getting more and more excited to proceed into my own work soon. I just reorganized my carry-notebook, and my online notes files, to accommodate quick and more effective jottings on all 6 books at once, as I go through things.
There are also 8 new books in the library I must read through before I plow into some of the new territorry... so I'll be tackling those as I finish editing this other book.

Ever busy writing makes one... which brings me back to 'that', you see. There's just no time for it. 😆

 

[Ent]

We all know about the '5 Ws and H', yes?
Who, what, when, where, why, and how ??

Are we aware they are most often essential to building and understanding individual sentences?

who....... what....... when........ where.....................why.......................how.
You ............go............now......... to the store....... to get milk....... quickly. (or 'in my car'... or 'quickly in my car'... or whatever fits the 'how'.)

These elements make a sentence complete.
the words can be rearranged for clarity at times... but the elements should remain.

Are all necessary in every case? No.
Could all be present in every case? Yes.
Would everything be clearer if they were always present? Yes.
Does leaving them out sometimes, lead to confusion? Yes.
If we're having difficulty constructing or understanding a sentence or statement, does it help to try to sort the sentence/statement this way? yes.

This is just another little hint for you.

Who.................. what................................ when............. where...................... why........... how.........
for you ................ another little hint..... is (now)..... here (assumed) ....... n/a ...... n/a.

Clearer:
"This added little hint is given for you now in this post as an aid."

Who: you
What: this added little hint
when: now
where: in this post
why: as an aid
how: is given (could say 'typed out' for precision).

The elements should only be left out when the 'assumption' needing to be made when they are absent is so clear, it cannot be misunderstood.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

A reduction in 'that' permeating your posts, too, I have seen.

Lol! *That* would be me, myself, and I.

 

[Ent]

Trusting you're all still finding pleasure and fulfillment in your projects.
Thought I'd toss out another little 'pill' here, yours free from my company, Entish Pharmaceutical Enginneering For Writers, where our motto is "A Pill A Day Helps The Writing Foray."

(As there are no actual 'pills,' our product is a little difficult to acquire funding for..!)

My editing on the 2nd book tanked for a short while as I grew behind in 'real work' for 'the machine' necessary for sustenance of life and livelihood in this age of unreason. Lasted for about 7 days. (Of course... we went out of town for 3 of those.)

But I was back to it this morning with some vigor. At my current pace, I still think I need just 2 - 3 more months of decent editing days to conclude the book, then its off to my own works.

Meanwhile, the picture of Gandalf for the first book is coming along well, being done to my specifications, addressing a few things I feel are often misrepresented/overlooked in his depictions. And, the Author works with the book cover stuff... January still the target.

My notebook remains my constant companion, divided now into sections related to each of the 6 books I pray I have time to deliver. (It is, of course, a 'black book'. What would we do without a 'black book' after all??)

Files have been set up to move recordings from the Black Book to online, backed up in 2 places, so the Black Book is not cluttered with 'yesterday's thoughts' overlong, but remains fairly clean and fresh for today's. ('Yesterday's Thoughts' are reviewed a time or three to see if they spur any ancillary needs or tangential thoughts. Then they're moved... 'out with the old, in with the new.')

It's just all very exciting.

 

[Ent]

Good morning all.
I'd like to call your attention to @Tyelkormo the Fair's new post of "A Final Farewell".
This is a good example of how short sentences, and even short paragraphs, can punctuate and heighten the drama or intensity of a scene.
I remarked on it there, too... in its discussion thread... sorry if this is redundant for you but it's a key point to remember.

It can also be 'overdone'... so a writer needs to draw a balance between punctuating drama to the reader, and overtaxing the 'flow' of the read for them. When overdone it can become distracting rather than additive.

"A writer's work is never done."

 

[Deimos]

THE HORRORS OF 'THAT':
To All Of You:
Sorry I would say I am, but well... I am not.
A reduction in 'that' permeating your posts, too, I have seen.
Harder to drop it from your speech you will find it. But worth the results, are the efforts.
...
Ever busy writing makes one... which brings me back to 'that', you see. There's just no time for it. 😆

I just saw this.
First, Ent, I'm not a writer, never have been, never will be. I know the limits of my talents.

After seeing how you addressed the [mostly, typically] superfluous use of "that" would you please do the same with "like"?
I cannot tell you which faculty is more violently abused by its misuse, my ears or my brain's left hemisphere (Broca's area).

Examples: What was Tom Bombadil doing on the path when he, like, came upon the Hobbits?
I was so sad when Gandalf, like, fell into the abyss in Moria.
When I saw the Fellowship movie for the first time, I was, like, blown away by the special effects.

When "like" is used in speaking it is a "filler word", similar to ""and uh", but it's use is so commonplace, so ubiquitous and yet still so jarring that I only half hear what the person is saying. The habit afflicts(?) talk show hosts, preachers, lawyers arguing a case, all age groups.
When it appears in writing I am again jarred but also dumbfounded; who writes "and, uhh" as filler in an essay or composition??!!
I have seen articles in newspaper and magazines that have such sentences as " The police were, like, searching for the killer. " Where are the editors???

As with "that", it will prove more difficult for the habituated to drop it from their speech, but well worth the effort.
If you can do anything to reduce the use of this execrable linguistic barbarity (it is beyond my hope that it can be eradicated) I will build you a monument that will dwarf the Tower of Babel.

 

[Ent]

this execrable linguistic barbarity

Exellent word use, sir Deimos..!!

would you please do the same with "like"?

First, I join you in your adverse reaction to the abuse of the human, elvish and entish ear (and mind, body and soul) with the abuse of 'like'.
And yes, here we deal with a matter similar to the abuse of 'that'.
Yet it is also very different.

The one, 'that', has become over decades and centuries, a matter of 'accepted abuse' to the point most don't even see it.

The other, 'like', has been much shorter-lived, and has universally jarred all but its users. It is, in a word, a 'social norm' for a certain few who want to be identified as... something. (I've never deduced exactly what their desired identification is.)

In addition, watching as I do so much of what is written here, I've not found the need to address 'like.' I just don't see it having been adopted by the more skilled and intelligent group we have on board. Is there something I'm missing? Or are you just expressing your abhorrence as a general matter.

I do deal with 'like' elsewhere... but the manner of dealing with it can be very different than dealing with 'that.'

The user of 'that' is generally truly interested in 'speaking and writing correctly.' True, some writers are a little sensitive when their writing is critiqued... but mostly they are receptive. Especially when they research the matter for themselves.

The user of 'like' however, is an entirely different animal. Their use is directly linked to their 'being'... who they are trying to 'hold themselves forth as'... a member of a certain small group within 'society' as it were.

It's true some have deadened themselves to it. But until they have grown beyond their current "societal association and acceptance" needs, they are unreceptive to change.

Anyway, I will certainly do so here, once, for all our 'writers'... as it can be quick.

WRITERS: Drop any use of 'like' not conforming to its definition and proper use. Using it as a 'filler word' makes you look ignorant and uneducated.

There. Perhaps the need for the Forum here has been handled. I'll continue my works on it elsewhere until I die, of course.😆

p.s. - you stated the case so well in your own post above, Deimos, Ent would be hard pressed to add anything more of significance to it anyway.

 

[Deimos]

Exellent word use, sir Deimos..!!
First, I join you in your adverse reaction to the abuse of the human, elvish and entish ear (and mind, body and soul) with the abuse of 'like'.
And yes, here we deal with a matter similar to the abuse of 'that'.
...
In addition, watching as I do so much of what is written here, I've not found the need to address 'like.' I just don't see it having been adopted by the more skilled and intelligent group we have on board. Is there something I'm missing? Or are you just expressing your abhorrence as a general matter.
Anyway, I will certainly do so here, once, for all our 'writers'... as it can be quick.
WRITERS: Drop any use of 'like' not conforming to its definition and proper use. Using it as a 'filler word' makes you look ignorant and uneducated.
There. Perhaps the need for the Forum here has been handled. I'll continue my works on it elsewhere until I die, of course.😆

Yes...an expression of abhorrence. However, I wonder if the writers (here), tho' they don' use it in their stories/compositions, still use it in their everyday speech?
When I write I take more care about grammar and vocabulary than when I'm speaking (my typos notwithstanding 🙄).
But even when I speak my grammar and vocabulary monitor is on: it is not quite a subconscious function.
So I will add, for the benefit of those speaking, to your admonition to writers about not using "like" as filler: [to those who have acquired the habit] STOP IT!

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Well I don't speak English in my everyday life,but the thought of people using the equivalent of "like" in my own language is enough to drive me crazy.

 

[Ent]

But even when I speak my grammar and vocabulary monitor is on: it is not quite a subconscious function.

WRITERS:
Listen to Deimos here... and recall my admonition with 'that'. To 'learn to speak' without those things we are trying to eliminate from our writing is more difficult... so our 'monitor' should always be 'on'.
If you catch yourselves using the word 'that' or 'like' or any other word or turn of phrase you wouldn't write, try to pause and check it out. (Or jot it down in your always handy notebook.)

How could you have 'spoken' it differently?
Speaking is as much a matter of training as is writing.
May we elevate our use of language in every respect, and in every medium. Who knows... perhaps we can lead the world in remembering how to communicate. (An artform near death, to be honest.)
What we don't want to do is contribute to the decline of the last few decades, if we can in any way avoid doing so.

 

[Deimos]

Well I don't speak English in my everyday life,but the thought of people using the equivalent of "like" in my own language is enough to drive me crazy.

It doesn't take long to become aware of the ubiquitous use of a "filler phrase"; i.e, if it were a rare occurrence I might think, "Someone should do this person a favor and tell him to work on eliminating the verbal fluff."
But it isn't rare and it drives me to distraction, especially with people I know and care about.
I just want to shake them and say: "Stop it! Do you know how, like, annoying that sounds? Just STOP IT!" But, of course, I don't🙄

 

[david_wendelken]

I finished re-writing two of the "just-the-facts" style stories in the appendices of Volume II. Had a lot of fun doing it and incorporating lots of rhetorical flourishes in it between the three bards on the journey. It was a great learning experience, too.

I've made good progress on Volume I this week. I now have 18 chapters written and with a solid edit for grammar, style, point of view and consistency. Many had been written decades ago but needed a fair bit of cleaning and tightening up. I've learned a goodly bit in the intervening years and the software support tools are much better now, too. A few of the stories were out of whole cloth and a few others were also in the "just-the-facts" style, but now they have been turned into proper components of the main storyline.

I have about another dozen chapters partly written. Some are very far along, others are in just-the-facts mode, and others are just sketched out.

Changing the focus of this volume to the early 2000's 3A instead of the 1300s 3A (long before the truly interesting humans in the 2000s were born) has been a real improvement to the story. Makes it tighter, more focused on a select group of people. I can introduce the necessary background info from the 1300s-1900s via campfire stories whilst the characters are on their quest together. Plus, the interaction of the characters around the campfire and to the stories fleshes out the personalities of the characters and their relationships to one another a lot more. I'm really excited!

Not a lot of page count progress on Volume III, but the writing has been tightened up.

As for illustrations for the stories, my son has sent several samples as we settle on an artistic style for them. My own drawing class is going well, I now know that I am trainable in the art of drawing. I still have lots to learn, but I will be able to do some of the illustrations within the next year, and more after that.

All in all, I've made some solid progress!

Volume I, 501 pages and 186,000+ words so far, of widely varying quality. About 1/2 is good, another 1/4 is a solid start, and the remaining 1/4 is just sketchy notes.

Volume II, 457 pages and 153,000+ words, well edited.

Volume III, 77 pages and 24,000- words, 42 of those pages are well edited.

 

[Ent]

Lots of solid progress… great stuff. Looking forward to results.

 

[Halasían]

Hmm... this is looking more like a 'proper writing admonishment' thread than a 'mutual encouragement thread' in my opinion ( I know, nobody asked me).

I enjoy writing my stories, and I don't write all that great. I also don't care to analyze every sentence for proper use of words or whether a sentence could be considered a 'filler' or an important bit of story information. Worrying about whether one is using a particular word too much while they are creatively writing can suck creativity dry since the actual structure becomes more important than the story trying to be told. So I don't worry about it. If I was doing a graded writing assignment in Language Arts class in high school I'd worry about such things. But I'm not. Anyway, my 2¢. I'll bow out and leave it to you elite writers to discuss and encourage each other on the proper use of words.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Personally,the structure of a story I'm reading is very important to me. I have abandoned many good stories with creative plots because as you said,they had many repetitive words. Not saying I'll enjoy a bad story with many different words used in one paragraph. There should be a balance.

 

[david_wendelken]

Hmm... this is looking more like a 'proper writing admonishment' thread than a 'mutual encouragement thread' in my opinion ( I know, nobody asked me).

I enjoy writing my stories, and I don't write all that great. I also don't care to analyze every sentence for proper use of words or whether a sentence could be considered a 'filler' or an important bit of story information. Worrying about whether one is using a particular word too much while they are creatively writing can suck creativity dry since the actual structure becomes more important than the story trying to be told. So I don't worry about it. If I was doing a graded writing assignment in Language Arts class in high school I'd worry about such things. But I'm not. Anyway, my 2¢. I'll bow out and leave it to you elite writers to discuss and encourage each other on the proper use of words.

No need to be eliteist in your anti-eliteism!

Want to focus on just the key elements of the story and not all that grammar and word choice? Fine by me! You do you.

I have some hobbies I enjoy at an amateur level of skill and others I enjoy attempting to achieve a professional level of skill. Both are important to me, and I'm 100% correct in my choice of which is which.

This thread is composed of both. Sometimes, by random chance, it will have more posts from one group than the other. Best way to strike a balance between them is to post away on your progress.

I'll wager that if your post focuses on what's important to you, like, "I wrote a new story this week!" or "I started three new stories!" and never mentions grammar or fancy word choice, you'll get plenty of encouragement about what your post contains, and very little to none about grammar and word choice.

So, tell us, how's your writing going? Got another story finished? Wrote how many pages this week or last night? Started another story? Stuck on the plot and want advice? Tell us what's important TO YOU about your writing journey!

 

[Halasían]

David WendelKen, I know what the thread is all about and have participated among the pages. No need for your instruction. I do me, just as everyone does themselves. I'm doing just fine with my story writing and don't need any encouragement. Considering the title of the thread, reading some of the posts here, to me, have a 'discouraging' vibe to them. That is all. Carry on.