• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

What are you writing about now?

I need some advice.

The pretext behind the books I'm writing is that they are translations of historical documents, much like LOTR is a translation of The Red Book of Westmarch plus some scholarly notes in the appendices. Except, instead of being one document by one hand, it's a collection of documents by a number of hands, gathered by a 3 different historians separated from one another by a thousand or more years, building on the work of their predecessors. Some of those documents are diaries, official records, letters, transcriptions of stories told (i.e, interviews), tales, songs, poems, etc. In addition, the modern editor of the work (i.e. me) add occasional explanatory marginalia just like they did in medieval times.

Chapter Headings, footnotes and context thru a clear point of view help the reader understand the transition from one major document to another.

I have one font I use for "my" comments. It's a very modern typeface, Calibri.

I have one font I use for text from the translated documents. It's a cross between an Irish uncial font and a more modern typeface, Berenika. It gives the illusion of it being a medieval manuscript but has the readability of modern typefaces. I'm quite happy with it. It's naturally a tad bigger than Calibri for the same point size.

If I leave a word in the original language (other than names of people, places or things that any vaguely attentive Tolkien fan would know), I italicize it. It makes it stand out a bit but not overly so. I use this same font for original language words even if embedded in modern commentary, but I downsize it to match Calibri when I do that.

Chapter headings are in full uncial font, called uncial.

If I want to emphasize a word or part thereof in someone's conversation, I bold it.

Occasionally, someone in the story reads another document, such as a letter. If I want that document to be read in full by the reader, I indent the text of the document on the left and leave the right margin the same.

All the above worked great for Volume II in my 3 book series.


I have a few issues in Volume I that I'm not sure how to handle.

#1)

Sometimes I want to interleave portions of several of the historical documents because it makes it easier for the reader to follow the story. (Much like courtroom dramas do, they present the testimony in order of building the scenario for the viewer/reader, not the order in which it might actually have been given. I developed a few graphic elements, like a decorated bar of harps below, to act as a divider between the interleaved documents. I think that's working ok, but wouldn't mind a better solution. Any ideas?

#2)
Some of the interleaved documents are dream sequences as told to someone and recorded by them. I would like some visual signifier that this was a dream.
Any ideas? I haven't found a font that seems to fit.

#3)
One of the translated tales was historically in verse but has been translated into prose. In the original tale, there were two different verse forms interleaved within it. One verse form was the traditional narrator's telling of the tale and the other verse form was a participant's internal dialog in their own mind. When this was just a short story, I just picked one font for one format and another font for another. But will all that's going on, I'm not sure that will work. Plus, of course, the fonts need to be distinct but complementary since they are interleaved within the same paragraph. Any ideas?
 
reading some of the posts here, to me, have a 'discouraging' vibe to them.
Oh, sorry. Was not at all the intent.
I just traversed some editing with tremendous examples of how a slight alteration of syntax in some simple statements produced an entirely different thrust to, and grasp of, what the writer was working to say. Strengthened the impact of the writing greatly.

For me, that kind of thing is ‘encouraging’ as I watch words work to their maximum potential.

Now I hesitate to share the examples. I don’t want stuff to be a ‘downer’.

To some degree, I feel as if I ‘can’t do me’ because doing so is now ‘at the expense’ of ‘you doing you’.

I’m a bit sad things work out this way… it’s kind of like ‘opinion’. There does not seem to be acceptance of, understanding of, and ability to present, alternative perspectives and benefit thereby.

I’ll stand back and ponder things for awhile here…. Perhaps I’ve just been too overpowering on improved use of language.
 
Don't stop, @Ent !

Speaking personally, I have greatly benefitted from your syntax advice. I've got good stories in my head, and your advice is helping me learn how to take my ideas and execute them to a higher level. Your tone also feels gentle and educational rather than bashing or putting anyone down.

If not everyone is interested in detailed information about word choice and sentence structure, that's fine, but at the end of the day it's up to all of us to decide what we want to spend our time reading and engaging with.
 
If not everyone is interested in detailed information about word choice and sentence structure, that's fine, but at the end of the day it's up to all of us to decide what we want to spend our time reading and engaging with.

Gandalf agrees with this and thinks it very wise.
 
I agree with Maedhros and Glorfindel! I love reading your encouragements and advice, @Ent. It means a great deal seeing how much you care about us, and how you desire to help us grow in our writing skills, going so far as to even offer to edit our personal writings from time to time and provide feedback. We desire to listen to you and learn what you know, so we may have the ability to excel further than we would have otherwise.

For me particularly, it’s encouraging to know others struggle with generating ideas and constantly overthinking about them too. I love to write, but my creative side isn’t as strong or forthcoming as it is for others, and it takes me forever to write something substantial. In addition, I’m always scrutinizing my writing, trying to think of how to improve my syntax for flow and impact, of what angle it is I’m attempting to express, how to incorporate new ideas, etc. It can be very taxing on my mind, and even when I say I’m finished I’ll still think of things I want to change yet again afterwards.

Being a part of the collaborative storytelling- that is, role playing around here has helped to keep my writing skills sharpened, and I enjoy engaging in these stories very much, especially with the people I do it with. I just wish I could improve on my weaknesses so I can enjoy the experience of writing as much as I love to think about it and read what others have written. However, in the past you’ve insisted on how even the smallest amount of progress in any stage of writing can be praised as a worthwhile effort, and this has become a comforting thing to remember when it feels like I’m not getting anything done.

All this to say, your writing advice and gentle demeanor is very helpful, and I am grateful for this thread and your participation in it. You mentioned before something to the effect of how even Tolkien had his difficult moments of writing because he would literally consider every word he wrote, and I felt like I could relate.

Your intentions are good, Ent, and you are making an impact on us for the better. Please do not cease to share with us what you know.
 
Last edited:
Wow. I'm a bit overwhelmed.

First, I'd like all of you to know I always take things very seriously, and ponder them well. And, when something like @Halasían's comment comes along, it behooves us to listen well, hear what's being said, and evaluate carefully. In every circumstance, there are lessons to be learned and takeaways able to be applied.

Next, @Halasían, thank you for sharing. Perhaps there's some change in tone or approach I/we can make so it does not come across as a 'discouragement' rather than an encouragement. I for one will try.

Then...I'm very thankful you personally don't need any encouragements to help you with your writing. I fear, though, it's not the case with all of us; certainly not for me. One reason I started the thread was because I felt by setting up an environment, and working at it, to encourage others, I would be encouraging myself along the way as well..! (Selfish of me, I know...but a part of the scheme nonetheless.)

I admit it also transitioned to a little bit of 'education' along the way... unavoidable for the Ent, as he's never been in an environment where 'teaching' wasn't a requirement of the role I fear. And there are many areas I would love to cover, not even touched on yet.

CONCLUSON :
After much pondering, coupling it with seeing the primary users of the thread not being put off in a similar way, I feel its beneficial to continue pretty much as we have been, though I'll watch the 'tone' to be sure it doesn't drift into negativity.

RECOMMENDATION:
Some threads are just not for everyone. People on this one will recall I recently posted to the 'Second Guessing/Bonkers Questions' thread regarding my own 'displeasure' at our chiding of what we personally deem to be 'dumb' questions... and the impact it may have on others, even here at our own Forum. A very similar situation compared to your post here, in most respects.

There are other threads I don't personally appreciate or approve of. But I never say anything about them, as obviously others do. (Unfortunately, being a Mod, I still need to visit them routinely, to keep track of what's going on.)

In your case, I'd like to suggest it sounds like this thread just isn't for you for a number of reasons. So... maybe just avoid it going forward.

I'm not sure what else to say.

I'm about to tackle use of the 'passive and conjunction' in our writing, with its reduction in the overall impact and power of a scene being drawn with words, and how to replace it with action words adding to both the scene's picture clarity and its influence on the mind of the reader.

Doesn't sound like it would be up your alley, but it's very much on my mind, and I think, beneficial for folks to review and consider.
(And for me, it 'encourages' improved performance and greater attention to detail in my own work as well. Turning it into a little 'writing' for others helps seat it in my own mind too. Again, a bit of a selfish reason for sharing.)
 
A note for you on "Increasing the Power Of the Picture: Catching the "Passive 'and' Conjunction". (Ent's title.)

One of the things we often do is use our favorite conjunction, 'and'. It nicely ties things together. BUT - does it draw the most powerful 'picture' for our readers? I'll offer a couple examples here, so you can be the judge.

1. The scene: Mildred is in the hospital gravely ill, and Myrtle is coming to visit her. (can you tell I'm old by the names??) Our author writes:

.... "Myrtle entered the room quickly and sat down in the chair, and held Mildred's hand." Not really too bad. We can see what's happened. BUT... what about:
... "Myrtle walked into the room quickly, taking hold of Mildred's hand as she sat down in the chair."

Observations in the above:
1. "walking" vs. 'entering' draws a more active picture. We can see how she enters the room better. Both 'entered' and 'walked' are 'action words'... but the one draws a more specific picture into the action.
2. In the first case, Myrtle 'sits down' first, meaning she 'takes care of herself', and then holds Mildred's hand. the "And" is a passive word here, adding nothing, but it connects the prior scene of sitting down to the holding of the hand. Almost as two 'separate' actions.
. In the second case however, Myrtle "takes hold of Mildred's hand..." NOT passive, but active. The 'taking hold' is much more an 'intimate picture' than just saying 'and held'. And we note Myrtle 'takes hold of the hand' AS she sat down, increasing the intensity of her obvious concern for Mildred...also making it one smooth connected action rather than seeming to be two 'separate' actions as in the first case.

Elimination of the two "passive 'ands,'" through changing up the syntax and order in the second case provides a more detailed and intense view of Myrtle's state of mind.

Let's construct another example. A little more subtle perhaps, who knows.

2. The scene: James the killer is holding a knife to Jordan's neck. The police are trying to convince him not to slit Jirdan's throat.

... "James took the knife from Jordan's neck and threw it on the ground."
... "James withdrew the knife from Jordan's neck, throwing it to the ground."

Observations:
1. Both "took" and "withdrew" give somewhat the same picture... but using 'withdrew' draws a subtly different detail into the picture.
2. the "passive 'and'" in the first case has us looking at 'took' and 'threw' as two possibly actions, while in the second case, the "withdrew/throwing" connection without the 'passive and' draws a little more intensity, as well as seeing it more as one connected action as James finally submits to the coaxing of the police to refrain from carrying out his intentions.

These kinds of subtleties are rampant in our work. We do well as we 'consider every word'.. and I'll move that one step further... 'consider every scene'.
HOW do you want your reader to see Myrtle and James? The little subtleties of their actions speak volumes about their nature and character.
WHAT do you want your reader to see them doing, and in what order? Do you want the reader to see separate actions, or a more 'united' action stemming possibly from a diffrent mental consideration in the moment?

Hoping this helps a bit, I remain:

Ent.
 
Last edited:

I worked up an excerpt from my writing that covers most of the issues I mentioned. I'm attaching it as a PDF. Ignore all "Reference Not Found" occurrences, that's because I tossed the linked text from the print sampler.

I may have a solution to one of my questions. (It really helps to take the time to explain to others!)
In the preface I had a newspaper article extract. I changed the font to Times New Roman and put it in a shadow box. I think I'll use the shadow box for other documents a character reads, but I think indenting the left hand side would be better than the way I did it in the preface example. Not sure that indenting it on both sides would add any value.

For question #1, I think I should develop a different graphic for each narrator/viewpoint. So, when the viewpoint changes, you know who is telling this portion of the tale right off.

Still not sure what to do with #2 or #3.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I included a sample page that would contain an illustration. Sadly, only the caption exists at the moment.
 

Attachments

  • Book 2 print sampler.pdf
    855.5 KB · Views: 72
Last edited:
Currently I have three projects.

1) A paper on observations of flooding of the Darling river at Menindee (Australia) during the post millenium drought event of 2011. Yes, it has been a while, but was delayed by organisational shenanigans.

2) A discussion paper on Australian impact craters as Mars analogues. Photos mostly from a field trip to central Australia earlier this year.

3) A chapter on Mars analogue research for a book that a friend is publishing.

1) has been submitted, awaiting reviewer's comments. 2) I am working on at present, need to have in by mid November. Meanwhile 3) is whimpering in a corner of my hard drive.
 
Very good examples!

In my earlier writing, still too much today, I tend to overuse commas instead of using connector words or restructuring the sentence, just like this one.
I'm making another editing pass thru the book I just finished and the two I'm working on in an attempt to improve on that. This has given me a much better insight on how to approach the problem. Thanks!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
better insight
Oh wonderful..! Glad it helped.

3) is whimpering in a corner of my hard drive.
Sound like 3 very interesting projects... and while the same dynamics of writing apply, these kinds of works also have a little different need and balance to them.,
Personally, I can very much relate to the "whiimpering #3"!!
 
For #3 (internal dialog), I just tried using the same font but in subscript format. It's similar enough (i.e., the font's don't clash with one another) but still quite distinct. Most of the text that would be subscripted is usually brief enough that the smaller text doesn't seem to be troublesome.

For #2 (dream sequence), still not sure. I'm thinking of a graphic above or in the margin that would help signify a dream state. Ideas?
 
Good times editing on 2 pieces from 2 writers, over these last 3 days.

The primary one of course is the 2nd book for author I've been editing for now for some time. Being on the 2nd pass through, there are relatively long spots now where little change is indicated... though I'm still 'laboring over every word' so to speak. So it's slow.

It gets harder as we go, since the issue is not to change the Author's intent or content... rather to help present it as well as can be, stripping oneself of 'personal bias' in every way, including sometimes word choice. One reason to 'pre-read' any work before taking an editorial pen to it, is to 'learn who the author is. How the author 'sounds'. What the author's general tone is." and more.

Anyway, this one may not need a 3rd pass through editing... just for proofing. (if I can keep my twigs off of it..!!)

I've been asked to restructure the current 'introduction' as a 'prologue' instead (which I've done)... and then to write up a whole new Introduction. Now there's a bit of a challenge..!

Then I've been asked if I'd like to do an appendix for this one as well. I'm gathering potential topics to address in the appendix related to the work, to highlight something I feel to be compatible and of consequence.

So... a ways to go, but the subject matter is magnificent so it's easily become another work of love.
 
I'm partway through converting something I wrote a very, very long time ago into another chapter in my book. It was one of my earliest fiction attempts. The actual story fragment was just a single scene, the rest of the information was presented in role-playing game format for a Middle-earth referee to plug into their campaign. (Or for the referee to adapt to whatever their game world was.) So, not at all in story format! That was problem #1.

Problem #2: Only one character (of two) in the scene actually understands the full details of what transpired, and they would never, ever, tell anyone. They just wouldn't. Nor do they really understand themselves enough to do so if they wanted to. No way around that. And when the tale needs to be passed on to another person, the one who knew all can't change their mind because they're dead. But darn it all, it's a great scene and I don't want to (a) change the timeline or (b) change the personality/awareness of the character. What to do?

One of the things that I've discovered is very powerful is to ask yourself, "Who is telling this part of the story? What would they reveal that a different person would not? What would they conceal that others would not? How would they go about telling the story? Just-the-facts, ma'am? Indirect references and allusions?" This process has broken writer's block for me quite a few times so far!

But I've already thought through both people who were present and neither is suitable. Darn!

And then the solution popped into my head! What if a third person witnessed this scene, unknown to the two participants. A third person who knew both people well enough to truly understand the full ramifications of what they saw and heard? I already had a character who would have been at the general location at that time who met all the criteria. They had important background tasks and responsibility, but were never featured in any tale other than a brief reference by other characters. Now I had a chance to change them from a cardboard character to a real person. That third person relates the story to a fourth character, who is the one I want to learn the tale. The fourth character is the one who wrote the book (as Frodo is the main "author" of the Red Book of Westmarch), they are the ones talking to my readers.

So, I went back to my questions about the point-of-view of the narrator of this part of the story. What would they tell? What would they conceal? How would they present their tale to others? I'm really excited because this third character has developed an interesting way of telling their story. They make their audience experience portions rather than just tell them, but make their audience deduce what is being told (or not told). It's also letting me practice the screenwriter's mantra that one should show, not tell, the audience what the characters are feeling. Hope to finish this chapter within a week or two.

It's interesting having a person relate a story about a different person to a someone else. The original two actors did what they did for whatever reasons they had. They didn't explain themselves, we have to deduce those reasons from their actions. I have to find a way to show, not tell, what those thoughts and motivations were. But we aren't the witness, that newly created third character is the witness, who provides their own filter on what they witness, some of which they consciously share, and some of which I have to find ways to show to their audience, the fourth character. The fourth character adds their own filter as they pass on this info to the reader. (It's actually clearer to read than it is to explain!) It's a great way to show what's important and what's not to multiple people at the same time.

Hope that all made sense to you!
 
And then the solution popped into my head! What if a third person witnessed this scene, unknown to the two participants. A third person who knew both people well enough to truly understand the full ramifications of what they saw and heard?
Made good sense to me.

Somewhat similar to Tolkien's experience when he wrote to Christopher (I believe) something like: "A new character has come into the scene. I did not know of him. I did not want him. But I like him." The character was Faramir.
Tolkien also notes something on the order of 'if he doesn't stop talking, I'm going to need to relegate him to the appendices' (or something like that.)

It is also how the Introduction to my book Peregrin Took: My Road came about. I was pondering the story itself in early stages and basic details, not even thinking about an introduction. Up popped Aragorn knocking at Peregrin's door, wanting to have a bit of a chat with him. Merry had just passed, and Pippin had been hiding out in his room at Minis Tirith until people were concerned.

I literally 'listened in on their conversation,' seeing their actions, facial expressions, gestures, etc, - which became the essential Introduction for the whole book, still some years in the future before it takes form..!!

We just never know what's going to happen with writing..!

Side note: the final of my Gandalf sketch is now done, to bring alongside my Sauron sketch, (both done to my specifications through the author to the artist) for the Lore book and my appendix therein. So we're working on the cover art, front and back.
Hopeful to get it out by Jan. 1 at this point.... we'll see.

After it's been out a short while, TTF might see a posting of the pics and a bit of a write-up to the Red Book regarding Gandalf and Sauron, of a little different nature. It's working in my head. (or is that ON my head..!!!)
 
Last edited:
I made it thru the entire text of Volume I of my 3 book series (as it exists to date) using Grammarly to help catch typos and such.

(This is not easy to do because the number of errors it finds changes as you edit it, so you may start with 512 issues, get down to 399, and start again in the morning with 587.)

It's much better for standard business English and not so good at fantasy, conversation or poetry. But it still catches a lot of things and it's free. Plus I can set it to British instead of American word usage, which is a plus.

I've found I have a much, much bigger vocabulary than it does.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…