What if an 🧌Orc took the One Ring?

[ZehnWaters]

Another Alternate Universe question. I’m not going to go into the details but let’s say there’s more Orcs in the Misty Mountains and Sméagol and Déagol get slain by Orcs after retrieving the One Ring from the Anduin. What do we think happens with the Ring? Orcs are already aligned with Sauron and evil, would they be more easily compelled to return the Ring to its owner? Or, like Gollum, would it just sit in Goblin Town being passed back and forth as Orcs slay each other to obtain its power? Would it draw the attention of the Balrog? It didn’t seem to when in the possession of Gollum (though I suppose it would depend on which orc band slew Sméagol and Déagol).

 

[Ent]

We don't necessarily need to assume a slaying of Déagol by an Orc. (Though we could.)

He was slain immediately by Gollum, before Gollum got booted out of his village, or started to be called Gollum. We can just assume at some point Sméagol, while in the dark tunnels after having been banished, was found out, trapped, and slain. (He had no idea how to use the ring's power - for him, it was just a nifty way to stay invisible to do his dirty work - much like it was for Bilbo, though their 'dirty work' was very different in nature and nastiness.)

Or, we could even assume it was Orcs swimming in the river, seeing a glint of gold, finding the ring. Neither S nor D need be involved.

Would the Orcs slay each other to gain its power? They, too, had no clue what the ring was, or its power - but they needed little provocation to slay each other anyway, so... just for the invisibility alone, almost certainly yes - first within their own little groups, then especially if somehow "other Orc bands" got wind of it. (Almost certainly, the most powerful Orc in any setting small or large would have ended up with it, and taken control of that band. Or the ring itself would have made its possessor the "most powerful Orc" in that band, giving it's protection to that new "Orc Chief," It would then become a matter of International Orc Politics, the various Orc bands fighting for its ownership and control.)

Given the ring works on the possessor's inherent characteristics, since the Orcs are inherently relatively dark to begin with, I can't imagine it would be very long before things get 'noised abroad' and awareness of the Ring expands. Also, it's power not being hidden away for hundreds of years, its owner being content with the mere killing of fish and possibly Orc young, Sauron would have taken shape much sooner, the power and work of the Ring becoming more publicly evident much sooner.

But the Ring did not 'choose to move on' earlier than it did... whether because it was itself waiting for Sauron to form again, or because Gollum had enough resistance for all that time to prevent its action, I do not know. (Such is the mystery of fantasy.)

But I doubt an Orc existed with ability to resist Sauron, even if he had the Ring. Wanting more power himself, he likely would have caved to the lure of Sauron, being promised that power and position BY Sauron - only to learn Sauron was a deceiver in more ways than one.

What would have happened to the Ring if a fundamentally twisted being had gotten hold of it? Be it Balrog, Orc, Troll, or even an Oliphaunt of ill temper?
It would surely have "made its way back to its master" with far greater alacrity and dispatch than it managed, trying to get away from Gollum, and ending up with Bilbo.

No, the Ring was itself inherently malevolent. We must assume Gandalf is correct, Providence was in play, Gollum resisted as long as he did, and 'still had a part to play' in the end, and so Bilbo was 'meant' to find the ring. It was not lost by Gollum by 'accident' nor found by Bilbo by 'accident.'

But this twists us back into the 'story that is' rather than the 'story we want to pursue' here.

What would have happened to the Ring? It would have gone to Sauron. Long before it was 'found' by Bilbo.
Would the Orcs have fought over it? I think, most certainly. Ultimately, to their own dismay, and the soon moving on of the Ring toward Sauron.

Interestingly, the story could still be told as The Lord of the Rings. It would just be a very different story - one of darkness, continuous warfare, and ultimate darkness coming into power to rule Arda. (The good news - no effort needs to be spared trying to sustain "nice guys" in the telling. Or fashioning any Elves, or Tom Bombadils, or even Hobbits. It could just be The Tales of the Dark Wars.

 

[Eljorahir]

Maybe the ring would impart no power whatsoever to an orc, not even invisibility. I think of orcs themselves as being merely extensions of Sauron's power/Being much like the Ring itself. When Men and Hobbits wore the Ring, they would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the wraith-world. Is it even possible for an orc to be in the "wraith-world"? If not, then: no invisibility for them!

 

[ZehnWaters]

Or, we could even assume it was Orcs swimming in the river, seeing a glint of gold, finding the ring. Neither S nor D need be involved.

Would orcs voluntarily enter the water? Especially a river?

No, the Ring was itself inherently malevolent. We must assume Gandalf is correct, Providence was in play, Gollum resisted as long as he did, and 'still had a part to play' in the end, and so Bilbo was 'meant' to find the ring. It was not lost by Gollum by 'accident' nor found by Bilbo by 'accident.'

But this twists us back into the 'story that is' rather than the 'story we want to pursue' here.

One could argue providence simply plays out differently in different circumstances. What causes the increased Orc population in my AU? No Éothéod in the North as they've already settled in Calenardhon. No Éothéod in the North means no one to clean up Orcs left from the destruction of Angmar. BUT, maybe this is how providence plays out. The Orcs obtain the ring but thin their own numbers by fighting each other for control of the Ring only for Bilbo to find it randomly in a cave or, perhaps, from the hand of the Great Goblin after he's slain by Gandalf. This is rather boring, however, as it leads to nearly the same place as The Hobbit. Though I suppose with a different outcome in Lord of the Rings...who leads Frodo and Sam to Mordor? How does the Ring end up in the lava?

Maybe the ring would impart no power whatsoever to an orc, not even invisibility. I think of orcs themselves as being merely extensions of Sauron's power/Being much like the Ring itself. When Men and Hobbits wore the Ring, they would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the wraith-world. Is it even possible for an orc to be in the "wraith-world"? If not, then: no invisibility for them!

Orcs are an extension of MOGOTH'S power. Sauron had difficulty controlling them, especially the wild Orcs in the east who made fun of him when he tried to claim rulership over them. It's one of the motivations for Sauron's creation of the One Ring, if I recall correctly.

 

[Ent]

I think of orcs themselves as being merely extensions of Sauron's power/

This may be dependent on what we consider the Ents' origin to be.
They are but 'twisted Elves' and are 'bred' - so they aren't outside the realm of 'living beings.'
Even the Dwarves, 'made' by Aule but given 'life' by Eru, were to a degree subject to Sauron's wiles.

I dunno... I can't think of them as being free from the influence.
We need to remember one of the Orcs taking the Hobbits back to Saruman was groping around, in search of the Ring. Whether for self or Sauron is uncertain, I suppose - but it I can't imagine it was for Sauron too much, unless Sauron had infiltrated Saruman's ranks and done some mind twisting.

An interesting pursuit, this... worth the pondering..

 

[Ent]

Sauron had difficulty controlling them,

Not the many multitudes he had in sway within Mordor I don't think.
Remember, when he turned his mind away from total control of the battle at the Black Gate, they were all 'bereft of direction."
The syntax and impression is the entire multitude attacking the folk trying to give Frodo the chance to finish the mission, were suddenly all on their own.

Interesting.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Not the many multitudes he had in sway within Mordor I don't think.

No. If I remember aright, it was the wild Orcs in the East or something.

 

[Vardarianna]

What if an Orc took the One Ring?​

This was something that came to my mind the first time I watched War of the Rohirrim ad that scene where the orcs were discussing why Mordor wanted rings.

 

[ZehnWaters]

What if an Orc took the One Ring?​

This was something that came to my mind the first time I watched War of the Rohirrim ad that scene where the orcs were discussing why Mordor wanted rings.

What're your thoughts, Ms. Vardarianna?

 

[Ent]

Would orcs voluntarily enter the water? Especially a river?

Do we have any evidence they wouldn't? I don't recall anywhere stating they didn't swim, and we know they crossed the river from one side to the other.

What're your thoughts, Ms. Vardarianna?

Indeed.

this is all most interesting. as I ponder possible AU possibilities, there are as many as there are Orcs. And with an entirely different scenario possible at every turn, we actually find ourselves restricted by many corners we turn, within the Tolkien U.

it's a bit diffuclt to 'jettison' some of it.

This is rather boring, however, as it leads to nearly the same place as The Hobbit. Though I suppose with a different outcome in Lord of the Rings...who leads Frodo and Sam to Mordor? How does the Ring end up in the lava?

A rather key point.
What do we envision as the end of this AU we discuss?
Still the destruction of the Ring and a temporary peace for the Free Peoples? Why?

With the ring in the hands of evil, and that evil seeking domination, would the Free Peoples even have a chance to get involved in any way, and come into possession of it to worry about? How?

Do the Free Peoples see the danger in the ring remaining in the hands of evil, and so intentionally set out to secure the ring? Or do we again look to some providential occurrence, putting it into the hands of them by what appears to be 'mere chance'? (Always the way Providence appears, to the unaware.)

And if we are going to assume the Ring is forged by the same person in the same way, and can only be unmade in the same way, then inevitably, whatever AU we create, it will in some way(s) 'fall back into line with the original story' and seem a boring journey to some.

How much are we willing to 'shake up' the issues of the Middle-earth we know?

An interesting read into an entirely AU - though the events are subsequent to the M-e we know - is our own former member Bosko Took's work, Tolkien and The Dangerous Truth published under the name P. R. Jennings. (A book I also had some small suggestions into - fairly recently revised, and republished.)

There, we find the ring not really destroyed, Tolkien's work being a bit of an elaborate ruse to put the peoples at ease. The ring does, of course, resurface, in much more modern times, being sought by many of ill will. And we discover many, many more things along the way as well. A fun read.

There's no end or corner to be left unturned, in the creating of AUs.

 

[Klaatu]

This is a deliciously bleak Alternate Universe (AU) scenario, like a second breakfast laced with shadowroot.

If orcs had slain Sméagol and Déagol upon their discovery of the Ring — say, near the Gladden Fields — and returned to the Misty Mountains with the prize, we must first consider the nature of the orcs and their relationship to the Ring.

Though orcs are aligned with Sauron, they are not mindless automatons. They squabble, backstab, and scheme. Recall Shagrat and Gorbag in The Two Towers — even in Mordor’s very shadow, they plot treason and dream of getting out with loot and freedom. The Ring, should it fall into their hands, would likely inflame their individual lusts for domination, power, or mere survival.

Sauron’s will is strong, but not instantaneous. Without a Nazgûl or a wraith-bound lieutenant nearby, the Ring would begin its slow seduction of the orcs individually — inciting paranoia, betrayal, and murder. Goblin-town would become a charnel house of clawed ambition and glowing greed.

A war of attrition within the orc ranks would follow. No discipline. No chain of command. Just whispered promises in the dark, in the minds of every wretched creature who glimpses the gold and dreams of being more than a maggot.

And then there's Durin’s Bane. The great flame-and-shadow sleeps deep beneath Khazad-dûm. The Ring alone may not rouse him, but should it be brought closer — or worse, should some poor fool flee with it into Moria to escape the orcish slaughter? Then, perhaps, the Balrog would take notice. Not because he craves the Ring himself (being a Maia, and one already corrupted), but because the Ring is a relic of rival power — a splinter of another fallen Maia’s will.

Unlike Gollum, the orcs have no cavern of concealment. They would not hide the Ring. They would fight and bleed for it. And eventually, its signal — faint though it is — would shine like a beacon of malice. Sauron would sense it sooner. The Nazgûl would fly sooner. The Eye would turn West not in the late Third Age, but perhaps centuries earlier.

In short: chaos, ruin, and an accelerated doom. The only ones who might benefit? Dwarves far to the east. Perhaps even the Entwives.

And maybe a jellyfish civilization from a gas moon near Alpha Cygni who snack on psychic residue. But I digress.

—Klaatu,
Keeper of the Lemon of Infinite Echoes,
Mushroom Diplomat to the Thrice-Sunned Swamp of Kalibo,
Formerly Known as Greg

 

[ZehnWaters]

Do we have any evidence they wouldn't? I don't recall anywhere stating they didn't swim, and we know they crossed the river from one side to the other.

We never see them go near water, if I recall. And the Nazgûl avoided it like the plague (save the Witch-king). I just assumed it was an extension of their fear of the power of Ulmo.

this is all most interesting. as I ponder possible AU possibilities, there are as many as there are Orcs. And with an entirely different scenario possible at every turn, we actually find ourselves restricted by many corners we turn, within the Tolkien U.

it's a bit diffuclt to 'jettison' some of it.

Which is why it always requires the input of others and constant revision. Even Tolkien revised his stories, heavily sometimes.

A rather key point.
What do we envision as the end of this AU we discuss?
Still the destruction of the Ring and a temporary peace for the Free Peoples? Why?

Because, ultimately, I don't know where to go from there. There's no more Morgoth or Sauron. What's left besides a handful of lingering effects and storylines (Durin VII; lingering conflicts with the South and East; a handful of Balrogs? Dragons?)? Even my extensive, wide-ranging 1st Age AU ends with the destruction of Sauron and his ring, though it takes place a few thousand years later than in the canon.

With the ring in the hands of evil, and that evil seeking domination, would the Free Peoples even have a chance to get involved in any way, and come into possession of it to worry about? How?

Perhaps the Orcs leave their strongholds and attack the Free Peoples before the One Ring has a chance to compel the Orcs to turn over the Ring. We know they come into conflict at the Battle of the Five Armies, for instance. And the War of the Dwarves and Orcs happens before that.

Do the Free Peoples see the danger in the ring remaining in the hands of evil, and so intentionally set out to secure the ring?

Well there's a thought. Perhaps the Wise come to realize the Ring is active sooner. If the Orcs are constantly flighting over it they might become aware of it earlier than it hiding for nearly 600 years with Gollum. A couple hundred years of in-fighting might alert the Dwarves or the Elves of Rivendell or Mirkwood.

Or do we again look to some providential occurrence, putting it into the hands of them by what appears to be 'mere chance'? (Always the way Providence appears, to the unaware.)

It's possible. As I mentioned earlier. Perhaps Bilbo simply gets it off the hand of the Great Goblin. The story largely plays out the same, though, so I find it quite boring. Or maybe it doesn't play out the same. Bilbo resisted the Ring so long because he got it immediately before performing an act of pity. Here he wouldn't. But I'm unsure how simply finding it by chance vs. finding it with an act of pity would change things.

And if we are going to assume the Ring is forged by the same person in the same way, and can only be unmade in the same way, then inevitably, whatever AU we create, it will in some way(s) 'fall back into line with the original story' and seem a boring journey to some.

Yes. Unless stated otherwise, all prior events remain the same. I'm aware that means that some events will remain the same. There will still be a journey to destroy the One Ring in Orodruin and that has gotten repetitive for me. But there's no way around it. Only my 1st Age AU manages to avoid that plotline (though only because Sauron forged his One Ring somewhere else lol).

How much are we willing to 'shake up' the issues of the Middle-earth we know?

Throw any ideas out there and I'll sift through them as suits my taste. Though it'd be useful to restrict things to:
The Ring must be destroyed eventually as all stories end with it (and Sauron's) destruction.
The story is always the same BEFORE the altered events.
It still takes place in the same universe. We aren't hopping over to Marvel or Narnia.

An interesting read into an entirely AU - though the events are subsequent to the M-e we know - is our own former member Bosko Took's work, Tolkien and The Dangerous Truth published under the name P. R. Jennings. (A book I also had some small suggestions into - fairly recently revised, and republished.)

There, we find the ring not really destroyed, Tolkien's work being a bit of an elaborate ruse to put the peoples at ease. The ring does, of course, resurface, in much more modern times, being sought by many of ill will. And we discover many, many more things along the way as well. A fun read.

There's no end or corner to be left unturned, in the creating of AUs.

lol I DID have an AU about the end of the world and Dagor Dagorath. But, as always, stories for other threads. Right now we're in a world where there are more Orcs in the northern Misty Mountains. If you want, I can go into more detail about WHY:
This is sprung from an RPG campaign where the heroes exist during the reign of the last Ship-King of Gondor. Thanks to their efforts:
Saruman takes up residence in Umbar as the King's administrator.
Radagast & Gondor end up with rare herbs from inland Harad that help treat the Great Plague.
Thanks to Gondor's more solid relationship with Umbar, Valacar is sent THERE, instead of Rhovanion, and marries a friendly Black Númenorean, preventing the Kin-Strife (I told you, most of my stories have "happier" endings). Instead, Valacar has a sister who marries Vidugavia's son, reversing the direction of bloodline shifts (i.e. the kings of the Northmen have longer lifespans, instead of the kings of Gondor having a mildly decreased lifespans).
When the wainriders attack Rhovanion, the Northmen are allowed to migrate into Calenardhon (thanks to their distant kinship to the king) rather than form the Éothéod in the Vales of Anduin. They're given the Keys of Orthanc and allowed to use it as their capital as rulers of Calenardhon (but not as a separate country).
Because the Northmen never moved to the Vales of Anduin, and never form the Éothéod, they never head North and wipe out the Orcs of Angmar, East of the Misty Mountains to take the land there.
And THAT is why there's more Orcs still hanging out in the M.M. when Sméagol and Déagol find the One Ring. It's possible they wouldn't attack the cousins at all. But I was trying to come up with a consequence for the Orcs still being in the M.M. other than "there's just more of them", which has no historical significance. I figured "more Orcs" might have an effect on the Stoors who hung around the Vales of Anduin and that meant attacking Déagol and Sméagol.

 

[ZehnWaters]

This is a deliciously bleak Alternate Universe (AU) scenario, like a second breakfast laced with shadowroot.

If orcs had slain Sméagol and Déagol upon their discovery of the Ring — say, near the Gladden Fields — and returned to the Misty Mountains with the prize, we must first consider the nature of the orcs and their relationship to the Ring.

Though orcs are aligned with Sauron, they are not mindless automatons. They squabble, backstab, and scheme. Recall Shagrat and Gorbag in The Two Towers — even in Mordor’s very shadow, they plot treason and dream of getting out with loot and freedom. The Ring, should it fall into their hands, would likely inflame their individual lusts for domination, power, or mere survival.

Sauron’s will is strong, but not instantaneous. Without a Nazgûl or a wraith-bound lieutenant nearby, the Ring would begin its slow seduction of the orcs individually — inciting paranoia, betrayal, and murder. Goblin-town would become a charnel house of clawed ambition and glowing greed.

A war of attrition within the orc ranks would follow. No discipline. No chain of command. Just whispered promises in the dark, in the minds of every wretched creature who glimpses the gold and dreams of being more than a maggot.

Yeeeees. This is more like it: story.

And then there's Durin’s Bane. The great flame-and-shadow sleeps deep beneath Khazad-dûm. The Ring alone may not rouse him, but should it be brought closer — or worse, should some poor fool flee with it into Moria to escape the orcish slaughter? Then, perhaps, the Balrog would take notice. Not because he craves the Ring himself (being a Maia, and one already corrupted), but because the Ring is a relic of rival power — a splinter of another fallen Maia’s will.

To be fair, the Ring still offers it power just as it did Saruman. The real question becomes: is it strong enough to wrest it from Sauron's control, thus destroying him as utterly as if the Ring had been destroyed? I'd say no. It'd need to do what Galadriel or Elrond would need to do and simply use it to gather an army and then destroy Saruon manually (i.e. kill him). The Ring would still anchor his soul, but after a third death, he'd be out of commission for a long while.

Unlike Gollum, the orcs have no cavern of concealment. They would not hide the Ring. They would fight and bleed for it. And eventually, its signal — faint though it is — would shine like a beacon of malice. Sauron would sense it sooner. The Nazgûl would fly sooner. The Eye would turn West not in the late Third Age, but perhaps centuries earlier.

I mean, it's still not found until 2463. But yes. It's possible that Sauron wouldn't see this any sooner than Saruman (who comes to reside in Isengard by 2759). Then it would become a race. Who can get there sooner? Sauron or Saruman (and possibly the Wise; Saruman was still working with them at the time). Would Galadriel sense it too? She's right on the M.M. footsteps after all.

In short: chaos, ruin, and an accelerated doom. The only ones who might benefit? Dwarves far to the east. Perhaps even the Entwives.

Assuming they're still alive. But thank you for reminding me of them. Their existance affects my War of the Elves and Sauron campaign.

 

[Vardarianna]

What if an Orc took the One Ring?​

This was something that came to my mind the first time I watched War of the Rohirrim and that scene where the orcs were discussing why Mordor wanted rings.

What're your thoughts, Ms. Vardarianna?

I ran out of time and had to go offline before I was able to finish my thoughts.

Interestingly, as I thought about it at the time, I figured that the servants of Sauron were so broken in will that the thought of keeping it was beyond their capability. My thought then went back to when the Black Rider sensed the hobbits hiding in the shire (I like the book read on this vs the PJ movie depiction). The Nazgul were by orders from Sauron out searching for 'Baggins' and the 'Shire', but did they know they were searching for 'the ring'?

Bow orcs did have some conscience, as depicted in the book with Shagrat and Gorbag discussing taking up on their own with no bosses (my bad paraphrasing), so what would stop an orc from trying on the One Ring? Using P.J.s movie depiction, the orcs wanted to keep loot when they stripped Frodo ("Hands off that shiny shirt!"), but it was clear they had no idea they were looking for a ring. I'm still thinking about this. Maybe more later.

 

[Elthir]

We never see them go near water, if I recall. And the Nazgûl avoided it like the plague (save the Witch-king). I just assumed it was an extension of their fear of the power of Ulmo.

Hmm. As Ent already noted, we know that orks crossed the Great River, mentioned in The Lord of the Rings for example (The Great River), and for another, in The Nature of Middle-Earth (Silvan Elves and Silvan Elvish).

In The Two Towers (The Uruk-hai) an ork-voice considers crossing the Great River "but there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges" - followed by - "I came across," said the evil voice. "A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank."

Granted, at the moment, I don't recall the word swim, but I'd guess, in normal circumstances, even the Elves would prefer a ford, a bridge, or a boat, to trying to swim across Anduin.

And for what it's worth, we know orks crossed the Nimrodel and appear to have touched the water at least, given: "curse their foul feet in its clean water."

 

[ZehnWaters]

Granted, at the moment, I don't recall the word swim, but I'd guess, in normal circumstances, even the Elves would prefer a ford, a bridge, or a boat, to trying to swim across Anduin.

Yes, and it's the swimming where things come to a head. They'd need to not just cross the Anduin, they'd need to dive deep and retrieve the Ring.

 

[Beleg_Cúthalion]

Well, we know orc submit to corruption easily, considering tens of thousands of orcs fight men because Sauron commands them to, and a lot of men have their own free will. Orcs do have brains, and they can have wills of their own, but they can't and don't because they submit to corruption easily, one could say more easily then men, so if men had trouble with the ring, orcs would undoubtably fight amongst themselves for it.

Although the ring practically controls them, they may still want the power. There is a reason why Sauron and Saruman didn't necessarily say that the hobbits had the One Ring. If an orc had found the ring, it would likely have ended up in Sauron's hands anyway, because Sauron could kill a single orc to get a ring in an instant, so if Sauron discovered the orcs had the ring and were hiding it, he could retrieve it easily from them, because he is far more powerful then orcs (also, the orcs would not manage to keep the fact they had it because if they decided to keep it, they would probably try to put it on).