What if the situation was switched in Cirith Ungol?

[Carantalath]

What if the situation was switched...

At the end of TTT, Frodo is poisoned by Shelob and Sam thinks he's dead (I always cry when I get to that part of the book ) Then, Sam takes the ring and tries to leave but he says that he has to stay with Frodo and then Frodo gets caught by the orcs. What if the situation had been switched.

What if Sam had been poisoned and then captured by the orcs? Do you think Frodo would have gone and saved him or do you think he would try to carry out the quest by himself?

 

[ltas]

I think that it is quite likely that Frodo, realizing the importance of completing the quest (destroying the ring), would have found the inner strength to leave the body of the supposedly dead friend behind. He would have never returned to the body, would have never found out that Sam is still alive and therefore would have never saved Sam.

 

[Elennainie]

As coldhearted as that sounds, I believe Itas is correct. Nothing else mattered if the quest failed. He would have had to leave Sam, if he suppossed him dead. I'd like to add, though, that this final blow of sadness may have rendered Frodo incapable of continuing his quest.

 

[Finduilas]

I'm afraid I don't agree with you two.In Lomidol every member of the FOTR promised to help the mission would be finished.This was what Sam had to do and so should react Frodo.But what did Samwise do actually ?Didn't he stay with Frodo despite the mission?
The only hope which kept Frodo alive was evil that was fulling his heart and the friendship of Sam?Then why should he leave his only friend in a moment like this,when he doesn't even have faith to go on?
I deffinetely think Frodo wouldn't have left Sam.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I also don't agree that Frodo would have left Sam behind. I do not understand your reasoning very well - so Sam loved Frodo so much that saving Frodo's life was a priority to the Quest (as he did) but if the situation was reversed,Frodo would not feel the same way about Sam. No way.

 

[Ravenna]

I think, in the end, Frodo would have left Sam, not because he didn't love him but because where Sam's actions were largely ruled by his heart, Frodo was more ruled by his head, he was much more fully aware of the consequences of failure. I do agree though, that this action would eventually have broken frodo's heart.

 

[Finduilas]

If Frodo had left Sam then it wouldn't be Frodo but the hobbit whose life has no more sense and mission except destroying the One.
I f Frodo ever leaves Sam then it means that they both are dead and can't fight anymore because of their helplessness.

 

[Ascamaciliel]

I think Frodo would have left Sam, but It would have been terribly hard for him. But Frodo knew what he had to do, and I think he would have carried through with it

 

[Lantarion]

It is interesting to see how many people feel that Frodo would have continued the quest and forsaken his friend; this is a natural idea, I think, because Frodo's troubled, weary and steadfast spirit in the book would point towards that end. But I think it would have been quite heartbreaking for him to do so: but in all rationality, what indeed would have been the point to staying with the dead Samwise, 'romantic' though it would have been?

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Frodo would have left Sam. He would have had to because the destruction of the Ring was the only thing that was important. Remember, at that point, Frodo and Sam believe that the rest of the Fellowship has probably already perished. After all, if GANDALF could fall, what hope was there for the rest of them?

Of course, if that had happened, then the Quest would have failed because it is Sam who succors Frodo, hiding him from the orcs and helping him husband his strength to make the 50 mile trek across the wastes of Mordor to the Mountain. Alone, Frodo would doubtless have been taken or simply died somewhere in the wilderness and the ever present Gollum would have regained the Ring. Naturally, when that happened, Sauron would have become aware of it - as he was when Frodo claimed it in Sammath Naur - and the Wraiths would have been sent to retrieve it - end of Gollum, end of Frodo, end of Sam, end of everything!

So, in fact, if Sam falls at Cirith Ungol, so does the West.

 

[aragil]

I agree with the Queen of Farmer's Wives and others who say Frodo would have continued on. It was really one of the charming characteristics of Sam that he returned to Frodo's side even before he learned that his master wasn't dead. Frodo was very virtuous in his own right, but wasn't the sort to put his friend's life (or even his own life, for that matter) above the welfare of all of Middle-Earth. I think it's a recurring motif in Tolkien's work that doing the illogical, heartfelt thing usually turns out for the best, while those who cold-heartedly follow logic don't always meet with a good end. Aragorn abandons the Ring quest and ends up as the King of Arnor and Gondor, Isildur abandons his sons to try and save the Ring and he ends up dead in the water (literally). Sam's choice to abandon the quest also turned out for the best, but I really don't think that would have been the choice of Frodo (even though abandoning Sam would have paradoxically doomed the quest).

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Indeed I see it as possible that Sam was rewarded for his loyalty to his master by the Valar. In that case the orcs fighting in the tower were controlled by a higher power.

Elen

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

The orcs in the Tower were not "controlled" by the Valar, but they were controlled, if you will, by their inbred nature which had been bestowed upon them by Morgoth. Morgoth perverted, tormented and twisted elves into orcs. By so doing he did indeed obtain the warriors of unrelieved evil that he desired, but he also "created" beings who were unable to suborn their violent characteristics to what would have been considered "the greater 'good'". That's why Sauron did not WANT the orcs to know about the Ring. If they had, he could not trust them to turn the Ring over to him. As it was, they came to grief over the mithril coat which, of course, was valuable but not nearly as valuable as the Ring!

Certainly both Frodo and Sam - as well as all the rest of those laboring on behalf of the forces of "good" - profited from the shortcomings and failings of Sauron and his minions. However, in the end, the actions of ALL parties on BOTH sides were there own - and therefore the consequences arising from those actions were also their own.

 

[Húrin Thalion]

I did not mean control, only influence. My idea was that all good actions in Eä were rewarded by a transdescent divine power!

Elen

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I don't know if "reward" is quite the right concept. Let us say that if one acts according to the will of God, then the consequences of one's action redound to one's ultimate benefit although frequently that benefit is not obvious at once or even during one's lifetime! Therefore, if what Sam (or Frodo et al.) did was what they were SUPPOSED to do in reference to the Divine plan, so to speak, then the "original good" was realized.

This concept of "the original good" was something that Tolkien's friend and literary advocate, C. S. Lewis was fond of presenting and by it, Lewis meant that there was no way that God' ultimate purpose could be thwarted either by men or demons. However, if we do not act according to God' will but our own (sometimes the two do coincide, but not all that frequently or we would have fewer problems in the world!), then God will "make do" with out disobedience and produce "good", but not the ORIGINAL good that He had intended.

In the case of the actions of the characters in LOTR, obviously, things would have gone far differently in a great many places in the story had Saruman remained true. On the face of it, we can think of many things that would change and would have represented (in the Mind of Eru), the "original good" intended when the Istari were sent to Middle Earth to battle Sauron. However, Saruman chose his OWN will over that of Eru. In the end, good came of his treason, but not "the original good" that the Creator intended.

Thus, God or the Valar do not "reward" those who are true, but, rather, their steadfastness brings about the "original good" intended for them - and that's reward enough.

 

[Carantalath]

I guess its time that I said my opinion. I think that Frodo would have left Sam behind. Frodo wanted to finish the quest. He thought that the rest of the fellowship was dead and that he and Sam were the only two left. He probably would have left Sam, who he presumed dead, and attempt to finish his quest. I believe that he would have failed without Sam, since Sam kept pushing him to keep going and Sam kept giving him water, food, and he actually cares him for a short period of time. Though he wouldn't have succeeded, Frodo would probably leave Sam and try his best to destroy the ring.