What is the true fate of the Entwives?

[Elu Thingol]

Do you have a quote to back that up Pohuist?

 

[Tyaronumen]

Here is an excerpt from the Encyclopaedia of Arda as regards this matter (under the 'Entwives' entry):

Tolkien's clearest statement on the matter is to be found in his Letters: 'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). This is less definite than it might appear, because he goes on to suggest that some might have fled into the east, and finally simply states of their fate, 'I don't know.'

Encyclopaedia of Arda

 

[Tyaronumen]

IMHO, it is always possible that ol' Samwise was simply mis-informed. Many an old wives tale was told in Earth's middle-ages about giants, dragons, etc... I'm sure that the teller even believed them in many instances.

 

[Gary Gamgee]

yes it is possible that sam was misinfromed, I agree and there are many other strange creatures in ME, take Boern for example. But I still like the idea that these creatures where the Entwives, it seems strange that he would call them Tree-men and not relate them to Ents. But as his letters state he said he didn't know the fate of the Entwives or perhaps he did not want to point out where they are in the book, possibly maybe. I think, and hope, they are the Entwives.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Yes, I would agree that the Entwives are a nice (as well as "clean") explanation for the sightings up North.

Still, it does seem strange that the Entwives -- who apparently had massive gardens in what became the Brown Lands -- would have been so secretive as to remain mythology and legend, even some 1400 years after the Marcho and Blanco crossed the Brandywine.

Perhaps they learned their lesson from the tragedy at the end of the 2nd Age and took greater pains to conceal their gardens . . . but it does beg an answer to the question of "how"...

 

[pohuist]

Thank you Tyaronumen. That was the statement I was referring too. While its not conclusive, there is no evidence insupport that any of the Entviwes are still alive, even if some managed to flee. (Except for sightings, but who can prove it not just the old wife tale).

 

[aragil]

... or an old Ent-wife tale, as it were.

I was just reading letter 144 the other day, and from the context I thought that the reader might have been referring to this exact incident. Of course, the book Letters only contains Tolkien's responses, so it's difficult to be sure what the original letters to Tolkien said.

But, one thing to keep in mind here- Tolkien wrote the early stages of the book years before the later chapters crystallized. I can't be sure, but I think that the conversation in the Green Dragon was one of the much earlier writings. At that point Tolkien was writing a story much more similar to the Hobbit, which included giants playing soccer in the mountains, I believe. If this is the case (I must consult HoME to be sure), then Tolkien penned that line long before he had any clear ideas on Ents, let alone Entwives. Remember, he originally had Treebeard as a giant who kept Gandalf hostage, and until after LotR was written there was nothing in the Silmarillion about the Ents.

 

[Shadowfax]

I always thought of the entwives as dead and gone, as if Tolkien put them in there to show what happens when you bury yourself in your work and don't pay attention to your loved ones. I think that what Sam was talking about would be an Ent searching for an Entwife.

 

[BluestEye]

Gary Gamgee, Sam called this creature a Tree-Man because he didn't know what an Ent was back then...

Bluest Eye

 

[LotR_Girl]

And who wouldn't call em creatures when don't know who they are? *LMAO!*

 

[Lantarion]

Har har.
But if Tolkien said he doesn't know what happened to the Entwives, maybe the walking trees really were Entwives: the only ones to survive Sauron, perhaps.
I've always thought that the Old Forest is so unfriendly because the wounded and angry Entwives fled away from the destruction that was their gardens, and sought sanctuary in the dense, wide forest (it was in those days). But living on your own for over two thousand years can get anone down , and even Fangorn said that some of his oldest friends had already become 'tree-like'. So perhaps this is what happened to the Entwives.
But in that case they probably couldn't walk very far, if at all. Maybe the walking elm was an escaped Huorn, that had snuch away from under his sheperd's nose? It is possible, though..

 

[pohuist]

If I remember the letter correctly some of the Entwives may possibly fled to the EAST (that is opposite the direction the Shire is from the Brown lands). But then again, rumours spread far and wide. I am inclined to think that Aragil's notion is correct that this is an earlier version that probably should have been updated as the story on Treebard changed.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Pontifex
Har har.
But if Tolkien said he doesn't know what happened to the Entwives, maybe the walking trees really were Entwives: the only ones to survive Sauron, perhaps.
I've always thought that the Old Forest is so unfriendly because the wounded and angry Entwives fled away from the destruction that was their gardens, and sought sanctuary in the dense, wide forest (it was in those days). But living on your own for over two thousand years can get anone down , and even Fangorn said that some of his oldest friends had already become 'tree-like'. So perhaps this is what happened to the Entwives.
But in that case they probably couldn't walk very far, if at all. Maybe the walking elm was an escaped Huorn, that had snuch away from under his sheperd's nose? It is possible, though..

This would probably require a fundamental change in the character of the Ent-wives -- to go from cultivators of gardens to angry refugees in the Old Forest?

It seems strange that the Ent-Wives would have fled to the Old Forest, instead of Fangorn -- if they were going to flee to a forest at all, which is not at all a given, based on the fact that they preferred their cultivated gardens to the wilds of the forest.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Keep in mind too that Treebeard says the Ents used to go looking for the Ent-wives... maybe it *was* a rogue Ent in the Shire having a look around for his ol' lady and her friends.

But also it's important to keep in mind that it's not likely that the Ent-wives would have hidden from Ents, and I can see no reason that Ents would not have travelled the environs of Arnor at one point or another in the 3rd age (I would consider it more likely that any such explorations would have taken place following the fall of Arthedain and Angmar)...

 

[FINGOLFIN]

The Entwives in the Old Forest

It seems clear from the descriptions of the hobbits travelling through the Old Forest that more than one or two "rogue" trees were involved in corrupting the path of visitors. If "all paths" seemed to lead to the Withywindle Valley, then perhaps that was for the purpose of concealing other portions of the forest (Gardens perhaps). And what is to be made of Old "Man" Willow? Ent, Hourn, an entity all to himself? It seems to me a plausible theory that the Ent-wives did inhabit the Old Forest and the trees were Hourns "awakened" by the Ent-wives for purposes of gaurding the abode of the Ent-wives. If I recall correctly the High Hedge was "attacked" by trees...this has to be some version of Ent or Hourn at work.

As for the "Tree-man" referred to by the hobbits. I always liked to think that was actually Treebeard himself. He does mention that he used to go about the lands of Middle Earth searching for the Ent-wives.

 

[Aslan]

Where are the Ent-wives?

Does anyone have any theories on the location of these woodsy ladies? I kind of lean on the idea that good-old Tom Bombadil was looking after them. Oh well, just my never-so-humble opinion. I know those Ents sure would like to know.

 

[Theoden]

I don't know why or where, but I have always had the idea that they walked into the sea and that the ents would be reunited with them at the end of the age.

I love your screen name!!! Aslan was my childhood hero and I still love CS Lewis' writing almost above anyone elses. Welcome to the forum!

-me

 

[Elu Thingol]

In one of his letters Tolkien states

'I think that in fact the Entwives had
disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...'(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954).

But he also goes on to say that ´I don´t know´ and that some may have fled into the east.

 

[Lantarion]

I have always mused that the Entwives (or what was left of them, *sniff*) fled to the Old Forest when it was somewhat larger than during the War of the Ring, but became so afraid and cautious of the outside world that they lost their minds and went 'treeish'. And maybe some Huorns accompanied them, I dunno.
But I suppose most of them were killed when Sauron destroyed their gardens.

 

[Beorn]

This thread is made of four other threads about Entwives. If you started a topic on Entwives recently, the thread-starting post will be near the bottom (the posts are ordered by date)