What kept 🧙Gandalf and others from using their full power in ⚔️battle?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Morgoth used up a lot of his original power to take greater control over Arda. Sauron put a lot of his original power into making the One Ring with the power to control the lesser Rings. What I'm curious about, especially as they were sent by the Valar specifically to stop Sauron, is why Gandalf, Sauruman, Radaghast, the blue wizards, and perhaps even First Age Elves like Galadriel didn't use the bulk of their power to do stuff like slay Nazgul, knock down Dol Guldor, black open the Black Gate, slay huge armies of orcs and save loads of lives at Helms Deep or the Battle of MInas Tirith, etc?

Was there a danger of having "Gandalf the Grey uncloaked" walking around Middle Earth fighting the forces of Sauron? Was there a danger of War of Wrath type of damage if they did that?

I can understand why Gandalf might be reluctant to use 50% or more of his total being and energy to take out something like the Balrog as that would mean far less power to use against Sauron (though, then again, I'm getting the impression that Gandalf was NOT under the assumption that if something happened, like him falling off a bridge and being weakened greatly by the Balrog, that he'd just come back to life. And, strangely enough, he did appear to be using a lot of power there in Moria against that Balrog thing, far more than we seem to have seen him use elsewhere.

I think the only time he even talked about using a great deal of power was actually back in the Party chapter, where he threatened Bilbo about "Gandalf the Grey uncloaked" if he wouldn't give up the Ring willingly. There, and it took me years to figure out what he meant, I'm now assuming he meant that if Bilbo hadn't, he wasn't fool enough to let Bilbo go wandering off into the Wild or wherever with the Ring still having a hold on him and was going to use his Mair power to MAKE him do it (kind of like Sauron and Melkor did to people) though in Gandalf's case, I think he was saving it for only a last resort as it would really hurt Bilbo if he did it. (I actually do wonder, now that I think of it, what he did to Gollum as Smeagol/Gollum is particularly stubborn about giving out information, particularly about his real past (if he can even remember it after lying to himself for so long.) If Sauron literally had to torture him to get information out of him, maybe Gandalf did something to Gollum to get him to tell the truth (considering how even Bilbo was having a hard time telling the truth about the Ring and all for years, it must have been one of Gandalf's greater accomplishments to get Gollum's origin story out of him.)

Gandalf, for instance, especially as Sauron didn't have the Ring to directly control the Nazgul, should have been able to, if not outright control the Nazgul, then at least greatly impede them by trying to control them or thwart Sauron's purpose for them. (i..e maybe he could have saved Theodon by using his Mair power against the Witch King.)

As for Galadriel, with Dol Guldor being such a menace and Sauron not being directly there (and perhaps not even a Nazgul at one point as all nine were after Frodo and the Ring), Galadriel seems like she could have used her power, especially as she had a bunch of elves plus a Great Ring too, to storm Dol Guldor and at least chase the bad guys out of the fortress and level it and give Thrandil a break. Granted, she'd be far weaker after doing so, but as her Great Ring was going to be made useless (by the one Ring failing) or dangerous (if Sauron got his Ring back), sitting around in Lothlorien doing nothing did seem rather pointless for her. Surely if one of the first age Noldor elves could march up to Anband itself and give the Great Enemy a decent fight and maim him (though perish in the attempt) Galadriel could have done real damage if she'd wanted to.

Also, while Melkor or Sauron would never have been willing to willingly make themselves weaker in a way that would not, they believed, bring them great gain and not their own ruin (i.e. Melkor didn't really think "hey, I'd make myself far weaker by trying to take control over Arda so that later I can't fight as well later on." as he cared only about his immediate goals, and ditto with Sauron, whom it was even outright stated that he'd never conceived that he was imperiling himself by making the One Ring in the first place as, he'd assumed, worst case scenario, someone else would just supplant as Dark Lord if they got the One Ring and use it to bring about the "perfect order" he was unable to, and never thought that someone might destroy it, thus crippling him.

However, good characters like Gandalf or Galadriel could, conceivably, be willing to accept possibly even expending all of their energy and fully fading if it would save their people or Middle Earth. Nor, as Tolkien states with Sauron being incapable, until forced to see it when Frodo claimed it, to even conceive of the idea that someone would risk all to destroy the Ring rather than use its power, that he'd also not expect that Gandalf or Galdariel would be willing to sacrifice themselves to bring him down and save Middle Earth.

I mean, conceivably, even as far as the Ring goes, if Sauron's power made it and hence, for whatever odd reason, the one place he made it would seem that its fire could end it only and not even first age dragons, but why, for instance, didn't Elrond, Galadriel, all the other first age elves, Radaghast, the blue wizards, etc all get together and concentrate the totality of their power (yes, even if it destroyed them in the process) to try and unmake the One Ring?

Why, in the end, other than perhaps Gandalf the Grey vs. Saruman (BTW, why was Gandalf the White just able to walk up and snap Saruman's staff whereas Gandalf the Grey got imprisoned by Saruman?), was the only major Maia fight we saw in the entire LOTR trilogy between Gandalf the Grey and Durin's Bane?

(Admittedly, Hobbit Gandalf seems far weaker than LOTR Gandalf, even Gandalf the Grey, as it states that Hobbit Gandalf nearly sacrificed himself to fight the Wargs when the eagles showed up whereas in LOTR one of the Hobbits states that the idea of the Wargs near Moria getting Gandalf was impossible. Maybe the Watcher in the Water was a bigger threat, but it seems that, other than Nazgul and Saruman, nothing he really came across as far as orcs or wargs was a real threat to him until he encountered the Balrog. Interestingly, apparently deep at the bottom of Moria and perhaps under it, Gandalf stated that there are WORSE things than the Balrog lurking down there.)

 

[Matthew Bailey]

You need to remember quite a few things about the Ainur regarding the War against Sauron.

• Sauron is actually who did most of Morgoth’s work for him, and Tolkien tells us that Morgoth was so diminished by the end of the First Age that Sauron had long ago eclipsed him. This does not mean that the Potential Morgoth was to remain forever diminished. But Morgoth’s choices eliminated his ability to “reconstitute” himself, as Sauron did multiple times (in each event losing parts of his Might and Power¹ in the process.

• As indicated in the footnote on “Power,” It doesn’t work like that, and Gandalf used 100% of what he had access to in order to take-out the Balrog.

The confrontation with the Balrog did several “jobs” for Tolkien in telling this story.

Firstly, it was “Like-against-Like,” and “Kind-against-Kind.” Tolkien tells us in Secondary and Tertiary Sources that Gandalf, like Arien, who “became the Sun” (or in the original cosmology and myth was the caretaker of the Vessel of the Sun), was a powerful Spirit of Fire. In fact, Tolkien tells us that Arien was pretty-much the mightiest, most powerful, and “highest-ranked” of all the Maiar other than Sauron and Gandalf/Olórin. Olórin/Gandalf was a Spirit who would have taken Gothmog’s job had he “Fallen to the Shadow.” Tolkien set this up, and in the language Gandalf uses is declaring to the Balrog: “I am of the same Fire that created you, yet I remain faithful to it, while you are a perversion who cannot prevail.”

Secondly… It is to demonstrate that Gandalf had no means to be “Gandalf Uncloaked.” That would Literally take an Act-of-God for Gandalf to become Olórin the Maia of Fire.

Thirdly, it is an “Act of Faith.”

Gandalf knew “This is something that I must confront, here and now, even though I will surely die in doing so. This means that I will have failed in my mission to inspire Humanity in the Fight against Sauron. I will have to have faith that others will rise to this challenge, and that Eru has provided for such an event as my ‘death²’ here.”

Gandalf knew that he could not allow the Balrog to join with Sauron, just like he knew that he could not allow Smaug to survive to join-forces with Sauron (and the Balrog, which he did not yet ”Know” that Durin’s Bane was a Balrog.

In doing so, Gandalf was rewarded with a re-embodiment, with a recreated Fanar that was still that of a Mortal Mirröanwi (Child of Ilívatar), but “enhanced,” more akin to that of the original Edain, or the First-Age Elves, even if still “aged.”

• The Comment on “Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” means nothing other than that Gandalf will exercise what Authority he has as a Wizard to daunt Bilbo. This is basically a version of Read him the Riot Act. In The Nature of Middle-earth, Part Two, Chapter IX: Osanwe-kenta, Tolkien details how communication between two minds works. In such a case, the “recipient” of such communication must willingly open their Mind to the sender of such a message to be able to “Understand.”

And not even Eru can violate the mind of someone who is Closed to such communication. BUT! It is possible to daunt or threaten someone into willingly opening their mind. Gandalf would HATE HIMSELF for having to do such a thing if Bilbo persisted in wanting to keep The Ring, but this is what it meant. It was in no way a reference to “Being the Maia Olórin,“ nor anything else.

”Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” is the Gandalf who slew the Balrog. Nothing more.



Again, as a reminder: Power doesn’t mean what you see in Video Games or Role-Playing Games (other than Runequest or Heroquest, as a technicality). It means “Authority,” which at times can appear misleadingly as “Strength,” but this is mistaking Authority for Strength. That is having Control over the “Empowered” Domain³.

“Power” In this case DOES NOT GET USED UP!

Note that Tolkien NEVER says “Used up” or “Consumed.” And he RARELY says so in relation to “Power.” The word he tends to use is Diminished. This might seem like picking-at-nits, but that is what Linguists do about Words, such as Tolkien devoted his life to doing.

It is “Will,” “Might,” “Strength,” that are consumed and “used-up.” It is the Nessar of the Fana that is “Consumed,” diminishing the Ainur in the process.

Gandalf doesn’t “Use-up” or threaten to “Use-up” any “Power.”

Explaining this fully would require detailing over 100 different Philosophers and Theologians over nearly 1,000 different works, likely requiring decades of study to really understand.

• Gandalf tells us what he did to Gollum to get him to talk:

”I had to put the fear of Fire on him.”

This is Gandalf’s innate “being.” See above: “Spirit of Fire⁴.“ Where he simply shows that he has “Power” over Fire (Authority over Fire).


—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

It is at this point that I must break, as your questions and “explorations”/Assumptions are based upon False Premises regarding the Metaphysical and Theological Foundations of Middle-earth.

You need to divorce yourself from ALL concepts regarding “Conflict” and “Confrontation” and “Combat” that really look like they are derived from Role-Playing Games or Video Games.

As someone who used to own a Company that made Miniatures for Role-Playing Games, I am well-aware of these tropes, and was once trapped into being unable to think in any other terms. Fortunately, I got beat-up by Michael Moorcock (at a Worldcon in the late-70s or early-80s because of it) for confusing Middle-earth with Hyboria (Conan), Atlantis (Kull the Conqueror), and the Young Kingdoms (Elric of Meliboné), and then being an arrogant, cocky kid who didn’t know he was arguing with Michael Moorcock until a friend who broke up it up asked what I did to piss-off Michael Moorcock.

But everything you have been saying means that you equate “Power” with “Energy,” which in Middle-earth isn’t the case.

None of the people you have cited have the AUTHORITY to destroy the Ring in the Fashion in which you describe.

Also… Frodo didn’t and wasn’t going to destroy The Ring once he got to the Sammath Naur. Sauron was alarmed not because The Ring was about to be destroyed, But because Frodo had managed to CLAIM THE POSSESSION/AUTHORITY/POWER over the Ring.

When Tolkien says “Rings of Power,” don’t think “Rings of Energy.” Instead think “Rings of Authority.”

The Rings of Power/Authority gave the bearer the means to “Assert their Will” upon others and the World.

Notice that in Christian Theology, especially that of Tolkien’s flavour of Catholicism derived from what is called Vatican I, asserting Your Will over that of God’s Will is the second greatest sin it is possible to commit. It is attempting to “Usurp the Power/Authority of God⁵.”

Galadriel, Elrond, Erestor, Gildor, Glorfindel, Thranduil, Legolas, Gandalf, and Radagast (and the Blue Wizards” do not have the Power/Authority to do anything to the Ruling-Ring. Save to be corrupted and perverted by it.

This is why they don’t even want to touch it.

Think of it this way…

You have a Uranium Ring, forming the core of a ring encased in Wurtzite Tetrahedral Boron-Nitride and Perfected Graphene. But you haven’t the means to make anything to Cut Wurtzite Graphene.

In Fact, nothing can cut these. They have to be molecularly disassembled. That requires some enormously advanced technology that currently only exists in a few places on Earth, OR in the Mantle of the Planet.

Similar to the Sammath Naur in Orodruin.

I don’t care who you get to try to “destroy” this Ring without any of the things I mention.

And wearing it will only slowly kill you (or, if it gets too close to other Uranium, rapidly kill you).

Anyone smart and wise enough to know what this thing is won’t even want to touch it, or get near it, and they will pick up the phone to CERN, or a similar installation to break-open the covering to deal destroying the poisonous, radioactive interior.


MB




1. To Tolkien, Power does not mean “Physical and Cognitive, Emotional, Psychological, or Spiritual Strength.” To Tolkien, that is Might. Power to Tolkien is “Authority.” Which tends to be over things that are not what Tolkien called Mirröanwi (Rational Incarnates who posses Sámar, Hröar, and Fëar — Mind, Will, Body, and Soul), but over beasts, or the physical Nessar of Eä and thus Arda (Nessar are the “Physical” “Materials” — sorry for the strange separate quotes, but each is done to indicate that “Physical” doesn’t necessarily mean “Matter made out of Molecules” and “Materials” doesn’t necessarily mean the “stuff” out of which Hröar and Fëar are “made” — that constitute Matter and Spirit. Tolkien references some arcane theology here).

2. While Gandalf cannot die in the traditional sense of the work, the Fanar (Body of an Ainur) he was “Wearing,” was made of the same Nessar as a Mirróanwi’s Hröa (The Body of a Child of Ilúvatar). It can and did die.

3. This is the source of the insipid questioning of Tom Bombadil being God or an Ainur, when Tolkien categorically states he is neither. Tom isn’t affected by the Ring, in the same way that Asbestos isn’t affected by a typical Fire. The Asbestos isn’t “overpowering” the Fire. It is immune to it. The Fire just “doesn’t really exist” to the Asbestos, in the same way that The Ruling Ring isn’t anything but a lump of metal to Tom.

Tolkien tells us exactly what and who Tom Bombadil is, and his relationship to Middle-earth. This itself is why The Ruling-Ring cannot have any effect on Tom Bombadil, just as the Barrow-wights don’t affect him.

4. This is another issue which people misunderstand.

They tend to (wrongly) think that “All of the Air Spirits were among the People of Manwë.” “All of the Plant Spirits were of the People of Yavanna.” “All of the Water Spirits are of the People of Ulmo.” “All of the Earth Spirits were of the People of Aulë.” … And so on.

ALL of the Valar has spirits of all kinds, many not affiliated with any physical “Element” such as “Fire, Earth, Water, Air, etc.” Arien was of Vána’s People. Vána isn’t a Fire Spirit. Arien herself also led a group of Fire Spirits who were of the People of many different Valar. It was this aspect that drew Morgoth to her, although Morgoth could not overcome her.

5. Also… Just because I continue to cite things related to Catholic and Christian Theology, and the various events related to Tolkien and the Catholic Religion, this does not mean that I personally believe all of these things (nor I am a Christian, when you get down to it, but that is irrelevant).

These things are important because they were the center of Tolkien’s life, and the Foundations upon which he constructed Middle-earth. So knowing what Tolkien believed, and why IS A NECESSITY to understanding his works. Without understanding these things, you wind-up making faulty, flawed assumptions like thinking ”Power === Energy.”

 

[d4rk3lf]

Was there a danger of having "Gandalf the Grey uncloaked" walking around Middle Earth fighting the forces of Sauron? Was there a danger of War of Wrath type of damage if they did that?

Imho, the point of istari is not only avoiding War of the wrath and consequences of destroying land itself.
The point is also to make elf, man, dwarfs, etc start fighting evil by themselves.
It's like when parent refuse to do homework to kid, so kid could learn that he needs to put effort and participate, but still, parent stay with the kid, during homework, and gives him tips and hints for the homework.

 

[Ent]

Imho, the point of istari is not only avoiding War of the wrath and consequences of destroying land itself.
The point is also to make elf, man, dwarfs, etc start fighting evil by themselves.
It's like when parent refuse to do homework to kid, so kid could learn that he needs to put effort and participate, but still, parent stay with the kid, during homework, and gives him tips and hints for the homework.

Indeed this is, I believe, why we read that the Istari were sent as "emissaries", (messengers/representatives), and were also "forbidden to reveal who they were and their power". (from which a great number of things flow, with regard to what their mission was, and how it was to be accomplished.)

This was the great failure of Saruman. Not only that he 'fell from his mission to encourage all that was good to action...." but that he willingly chose to disobey his commission, to ultimately and eventually (should he succeed in getting the ring) reveal all of who he was and his power, and become the very thing he was sent to encourage Middle-earth to resist. A typical "usurper", wanting one's might and power without the knowledge and wisdom to attain it for oneself.

Just as Melkor chose to 'sing a conflicting song', so did Saruman.
Sauron may have been 'deceived by Melkor', he having originally been 'assigned' as one of Melkor's servants...
But Saruman was not so assigned. He fell through his own personal lusts and desires. Sauron needed to do little enhancement to aid in the fall.
Saruman (it seems to me) made his own choices. (Though a couple arguments could be made against this.)
It's the old story that "you cannot dapple with the darkness and yet maintain your position in the light."

You need to remember quite a few things about the Ainur regarding the War against Sauron.

• Sauron is actually who did most of Morgoth’s work for him, and Tolkien tells us that Morgoth was so diminished by the end of the First Age that Sauron had long ago eclipsed him. This does not mean that the Potential Morgoth was to remain forever diminished. But Morgoth’s choices eliminated his ability to “reconstitute” himself, as Sauron did multiple times (in each event losing parts of his Might and Power¹ in the process.

• As indicated in the footnote on “Power,” It doesn’t work like that, and Gandalf used 100% of what he had access to in order to take-out the Balrog.

The confrontation with the Balrog did several “jobs” for Tolkien in telling this story.

Firstly, it was “Like-against-Like,” and “Kind-against-Kind.” Tolkien tells us in Secondary and Tertiary Sources that Gandalf, like Arien, who “became the Sun” (or in the original cosmology and myth was the caretaker of the Vessel of the Sun), was a powerful Spirit of Fire. In fact, Tolkien tells us that Arien was pretty-much the mightiest, most powerful, and “highest-ranked” of all the Maiar other than Sauron and Gandalf/Olórin. Olórin/Gandalf was a Spirit who would have taken Gothmog’s job had he “Fallen to the Shadow.” Tolkien set this up, and in the language Gandalf uses is declaring to the Balrog: “I am of the same Fire that created you, yet I remain faithful to it, while you are a perversion who cannot prevail.”

Secondly… It is to demonstrate that Gandalf had no means to be “Gandalf Uncloaked.” That would Literally take an Act-of-God for Gandalf to become Olórin the Maia of Fire.

Thirdly, it is an “Act of Faith.”

Gandalf knew “This is something that I must confront, here and now, even though I will surely die in doing so. This means that I will have failed in my mission to inspire Humanity in the Fight against Sauron. I will have to have faith that others will rise to this challenge, and that Eru has provided for such an event as my ‘death²’ here.”

Gandalf knew that he could not allow the Balrog to join with Sauron, just like he knew that he could not allow Smaug to survive to join-forces with Sauron (and the Balrog, which he did not yet ”Know” that Durin’s Bane was a Balrog.

In doing so, Gandalf was rewarded with a re-embodiment, with a recreated Fanar that was still that of a Mortal Mirröanwi (Child of Ilívatar), but “enhanced,” more akin to that of the original Edain, or the First-Age Elves, even if still “aged.”

• The Comment on “Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” means nothing other than that Gandalf will exercise what Authority he has as a Wizard to daunt Bilbo. This is basically a version of Read him the Riot Act. In The Nature of Middle-earth, Part Two, Chapter IX: Osanwe-kenta, Tolkien details how communication between two minds works. In such a case, the “recipient” of such communication must willingly open their Mind to the sender of such a message to be able to “Understand.”

And not even Eru can violate the mind of someone who is Closed to such communication. BUT! It is possible to daunt or threaten someone into willingly opening their mind. Gandalf would HATE HIMSELF for having to do such a thing if Bilbo persisted in wanting to keep The Ring, but this is what it meant. It was in no way a reference to “Being the Maia Olórin,“ nor anything else.

”Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” is the Gandalf who slew the Balrog. Nothing more.



Again, as a reminder: Power doesn’t mean what you see in Video Games or Role-Playing Games (other than Runequest or Heroquest, as a technicality). It means “Authority,” which at times can appear misleadingly as “Strength,” but this is mistaking Authority for Strength. That is having Control over the “Empowered” Domain³.

“Power” In this case DOES NOT GET USED UP!

Note that Tolkien NEVER says “Used up” or “Consumed.” And he RARELY says so in relation to “Power.” The word he tends to use is Diminished. This might seem like picking-at-nits, but that is what Linguists do about Words, such as Tolkien devoted his life to doing.

It is “Will,” “Might,” “Strength,” that are consumed and “used-up.” It is the Nessar of the Fana that is “Consumed,” diminishing the Ainur in the process.

Gandalf doesn’t “Use-up” or threaten to “Use-up” any “Power.”

Explaining this fully would require detailing over 100 different Philosophers and Theologians over nearly 1,000 different works, likely requiring decades of study to really understand.

• Gandalf tells us what he did to Gollum to get him to talk:

”I had to put the fear of Fire on him.”

This is Gandalf’s innate “being.” See above: “Spirit of Fire⁴.“ Where he simply shows that he has “Power” over Fire (Authority over Fire).


—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

It is at this point that I must break, as your questions and “explorations”/Assumptions are based upon False Premises regarding the Metaphysical and Theological Foundations of Middle-earth.

You need to divorce yourself from ALL concepts regarding “Conflict” and “Confrontation” and “Combat” that really look like they are derived from Role-Playing Games or Video Games.

As someone who used to own a Company that made Miniatures for Role-Playing Games, I am well-aware of these tropes, and was once trapped into being unable to think in any other terms. Fortunately, I got beat-up by Michael Moorcock (at a Worldcon in the late-70s or early-80s because of it) for confusing Middle-earth with Hyboria (Conan), Atlantis (Kull the Conqueror), and the Young Kingdoms (Elric of Meliboné), and then being an arrogant, cocky kid who didn’t know he was arguing with Michael Moorcock until a friend who broke up it up asked what I did to piss-off Michael Moorcock.

But everything you have been saying means that you equate “Power” with “Energy,” which in Middle-earth isn’t the case.

None of the people you have cited have the AUTHORITY to destroy the Ring in the Fashion in which you describe.

Also… Frodo didn’t and wasn’t going to destroy The Ring once he got to the Sammath Naur. Sauron was alarmed not because The Ring was about to be destroyed, But because Frodo had managed to CLAIM THE POSSESSION/AUTHORITY/POWER over the Ring.

When Tolkien says “Rings of Power,” don’t think “Rings of Energy.” Instead think “Rings of Authority.”

The Rings of Power/Authority gave the bearer the means to “Assert their Will” upon others and the World.

Notice that in Christian Theology, especially that of Tolkien’s flavour of Catholicism derived from what is called Vatican I, asserting Your Will over that of God’s Will is the second greatest sin it is possible to commit. It is attempting to “Usurp the Power/Authority of God⁵.”

Galadriel, Elrond, Erestor, Gildor, Glorfindel, Thranduil, Legolas, Gandalf, and Radagast (and the Blue Wizards” do not have the Power/Authority to do anything to the Ruling-Ring. Save to be corrupted and perverted by it.

This is why they don’t even want to touch it.

Think of it this way…

You have a Uranium Ring, forming the core of a ring encased in Wurtzite Tetrahedral Boron-Nitride and Perfected Graphene. But you haven’t the means to make anything to Cut Wurtzite Graphene.

In Fact, nothing can cut these. They have to be molecularly disassembled. That requires some enormously advanced technology that currently only exists in a few places on Earth, OR in the Mantle of the Planet.

Similar to the Sammath Naur in Orodruin.

I don’t care who you get to try to “destroy” this Ring without any of the things I mention.

And wearing it will only slowly kill you (or, if it gets too close to other Uranium, rapidly kill you).

Anyone smart and wise enough to know what this thing is won’t even want to touch it, or get near it, and they will pick up the phone to CERN, or a similar installation to break-open the covering to deal destroying the poisonous, radioactive interior.


MB




1. To Tolkien, Power does not mean “Physical and Cognitive, Emotional, Psychological, or Spiritual Strength.” To Tolkien, that is Might. Power to Tolkien is “Authority.” Which tends to be over things that are not what Tolkien called Mirröanwi (Rational Incarnates who posses Sámar, Hröar, and Fëar — Mind, Will, Body, and Soul), but over beasts, or the physical Nessar of Eä and thus Arda (Nessar are the “Physical” “Materials” — sorry for the strange separate quotes, but each is done to indicate that “Physical” doesn’t necessarily mean “Matter made out of Molecules” and “Materials” doesn’t necessarily mean the “stuff” out of which Hröar and Fëar are “made” — that constitute Matter and Spirit. Tolkien references some arcane theology here).

2. While Gandalf cannot die in the traditional sense of the work, the Fanar (Body of an Ainur) he was “Wearing,” was made of the same Nessar as a Mirróanwi’s Hröa (The Body of a Child of Ilúvatar). It can and did die.

3. This is the source of the insipid questioning of Tom Bombadil being God or an Ainur, when Tolkien categorically states he is neither. Tom isn’t affected by the Ring, in the same way that Asbestos isn’t affected by a typical Fire. The Asbestos isn’t “overpowering” the Fire. It is immune to it. The Fire just “doesn’t really exist” to the Asbestos, in the same way that The Ruling Ring isn’t anything but a lump of metal to Tom.

Tolkien tells us exactly what and who Tom Bombadil is, and his relationship to Middle-earth. This itself is why The Ruling-Ring cannot have any effect on Tom Bombadil, just as the Barrow-wights don’t affect him.

4. This is another issue which people misunderstand.

They tend to (wrongly) think that “All of the Air Spirits were among the People of Manwë.” “All of the Plant Spirits were of the People of Yavanna.” “All of the Water Spirits are of the People of Ulmo.” “All of the Earth Spirits were of the People of Aulë.” … And so on.

ALL of the Valar has spirits of all kinds, many not affiliated with any physical “Element” such as “Fire, Earth, Water, Air, etc.” Arien was of Vána’s People. Vána isn’t a Fire Spirit. Arien herself also led a group of Fire Spirits who were of the People of many different Valar. It was this aspect that drew Morgoth to her, although Morgoth could not overcome her.

5. Also… Just because I continue to cite things related to Catholic and Christian Theology, and the various events related to Tolkien and the Catholic Religion, this does not mean that I personally believe all of these things (nor I am a Christian, when you get down to it, but that is irrelevant).

These things are important because they were the center of Tolkien’s life, and the Foundations upon which he constructed Middle-earth. So knowing what Tolkien believed, and why IS A NECESSITY to understanding his works. Without understanding these things, you wind-up making faulty, flawed assumptions like thinking ”Power === Energy.”

My dear MB.
This is quite the dissertation.
I'm going to need to print it out, translate it, digest it, then check source materials to validate some of the comments made in it.
After all that, I may have some few questions for you, if you don't mind... though I would probably 'message' them to you rather than post.

I'm having entirely too much fun here today.

 

[Copia]

You need to remember quite a few things about the Ainur regarding the War against Sauron.

• Sauron is actually who did most of Morgoth’s work for him, and Tolkien tells us that Morgoth was so diminished by the end of the First Age that Sauron had long ago eclipsed him. This does not mean that the Potential Morgoth was to remain forever diminished. But Morgoth’s choices eliminated his ability to “reconstitute” himself, as Sauron did multiple times (in each event losing parts of his Might and Power¹ in the process.

• As indicated in the footnote on “Power,” It doesn’t work like that, and Gandalf used 100% of what he had access to in order to take-out the Balrog.

The confrontation with the Balrog did several “jobs” for Tolkien in telling this story.

Firstly, it was “Like-against-Like,” and “Kind-against-Kind.” Tolkien tells us in Secondary and Tertiary Sources that Gandalf, like Arien, who “became the Sun” (or in the original cosmology and myth was the caretaker of the Vessel of the Sun), was a powerful Spirit of Fire. In fact, Tolkien tells us that Arien was pretty-much the mightiest, most powerful, and “highest-ranked” of all the Maiar other than Sauron and Gandalf/Olórin. Olórin/Gandalf was a Spirit who would have taken Gothmog’s job had he “Fallen to the Shadow.” Tolkien set this up, and in the language Gandalf uses is declaring to the Balrog: “I am of the same Fire that created you, yet I remain faithful to it, while you are a perversion who cannot prevail.”

Secondly… It is to demonstrate that Gandalf had no means to be “Gandalf Uncloaked.” That would Literally take an Act-of-God for Gandalf to become Olórin the Maia of Fire.

Thirdly, it is an “Act of Faith.”

Gandalf knew “This is something that I must confront, here and now, even though I will surely die in doing so. This means that I will have failed in my mission to inspire Humanity in the Fight against Sauron. I will have to have faith that others will rise to this challenge, and that Eru has provided for such an event as my ‘death²’ here.”

Gandalf knew that he could not allow the Balrog to join with Sauron, just like he knew that he could not allow Smaug to survive to join-forces with Sauron (and the Balrog, which he did not yet ”Know” that Durin’s Bane was a Balrog.

In doing so, Gandalf was rewarded with a re-embodiment, with a recreated Fanar that was still that of a Mortal Mirröanwi (Child of Ilívatar), but “enhanced,” more akin to that of the original Edain, or the First-Age Elves, even if still “aged.”

• The Comment on “Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” means nothing other than that Gandalf will exercise what Authority he has as a Wizard to daunt Bilbo. This is basically a version of Read him the Riot Act. In The Nature of Middle-earth, Part Two, Chapter IX: Osanwe-kenta, Tolkien details how communication between two minds works. In such a case, the “recipient” of such communication must willingly open their Mind to the sender of such a message to be able to “Understand.”

And not even Eru can violate the mind of someone who is Closed to such communication. BUT! It is possible to daunt or threaten someone into willingly opening their mind. Gandalf would HATE HIMSELF for having to do such a thing if Bilbo persisted in wanting to keep The Ring, but this is what it meant. It was in no way a reference to “Being the Maia Olórin,“ nor anything else.

”Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked” is the Gandalf who slew the Balrog. Nothing more.



Again, as a reminder: Power doesn’t mean what you see in Video Games or Role-Playing Games (other than Runequest or Heroquest, as a technicality). It means “Authority,” which at times can appear misleadingly as “Strength,” but this is mistaking Authority for Strength. That is having Control over the “Empowered” Domain³.

“Power” In this case DOES NOT GET USED UP!

Note that Tolkien NEVER says “Used up” or “Consumed.” And he RARELY says so in relation to “Power.” The word he tends to use is Diminished. This might seem like picking-at-nits, but that is what Linguists do about Words, such as Tolkien devoted his life to doing.

It is “Will,” “Might,” “Strength,” that are consumed and “used-up.” It is the Nessar of the Fana that is “Consumed,” diminishing the Ainur in the process.

Gandalf doesn’t “Use-up” or threaten to “Use-up” any “Power.”

Explaining this fully would require detailing over 100 different Philosophers and Theologians over nearly 1,000 different works, likely requiring decades of study to really understand.

• Gandalf tells us what he did to Gollum to get him to talk:

”I had to put the fear of Fire on him.”

This is Gandalf’s innate “being.” See above: “Spirit of Fire⁴.“ Where he simply shows that he has “Power” over Fire (Authority over Fire).


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It is at this point that I must break, as your questions and “explorations”/Assumptions are based upon False Premises regarding the Metaphysical and Theological Foundations of Middle-earth.

You need to divorce yourself from ALL concepts regarding “Conflict” and “Confrontation” and “Combat” that really look like they are derived from Role-Playing Games or Video Games.

As someone who used to own a Company that made Miniatures for Role-Playing Games, I am well-aware of these tropes, and was once trapped into being unable to think in any other terms. Fortunately, I got beat-up by Michael Moorcock (at a Worldcon in the late-70s or early-80s because of it) for confusing Middle-earth with Hyboria (Conan), Atlantis (Kull the Conqueror), and the Young Kingdoms (Elric of Meliboné), and then being an arrogant, cocky kid who didn’t know he was arguing with Michael Moorcock until a friend who broke up it up asked what I did to piss-off Michael Moorcock.

But everything you have been saying means that you equate “Power” with “Energy,” which in Middle-earth isn’t the case.

None of the people you have cited have the AUTHORITY to destroy the Ring in the Fashion in which you describe.

Also… Frodo didn’t and wasn’t going to destroy The Ring once he got to the Sammath Naur. Sauron was alarmed not because The Ring was about to be destroyed, But because Frodo had managed to CLAIM THE POSSESSION/AUTHORITY/POWER over the Ring.

When Tolkien says “Rings of Power,” don’t think “Rings of Energy.” Instead think “Rings of Authority.”

The Rings of Power/Authority gave the bearer the means to “Assert their Will” upon others and the World.

Notice that in Christian Theology, especially that of Tolkien’s flavour of Catholicism derived from what is called Vatican I, asserting Your Will over that of God’s Will is the second greatest sin it is possible to commit. It is attempting to “Usurp the Power/Authority of God⁵.”

Galadriel, Elrond, Erestor, Gildor, Glorfindel, Thranduil, Legolas, Gandalf, and Radagast (and the Blue Wizards” do not have the Power/Authority to do anything to the Ruling-Ring. Save to be corrupted and perverted by it.

This is why they don’t even want to touch it.

Think of it this way…

You have a Uranium Ring, forming the core of a ring encased in Wurtzite Tetrahedral Boron-Nitride and Perfected Graphene. But you haven’t the means to make anything to Cut Wurtzite Graphene.

In Fact, nothing can cut these. They have to be molecularly disassembled. That requires some enormously advanced technology that currently only exists in a few places on Earth, OR in the Mantle of the Planet.

Similar to the Sammath Naur in Orodruin.

I don’t care who you get to try to “destroy” this Ring without any of the things I mention.

And wearing it will only slowly kill you (or, if it gets too close to other Uranium, rapidly kill you).

Anyone smart and wise enough to know what this thing is won’t even want to touch it, or get near it, and they will pick up the phone to CERN, or a similar installation to break-open the covering to deal destroying the poisonous, radioactive interior.


MB




1. To Tolkien, Power does not mean “Physical and Cognitive, Emotional, Psychological, or Spiritual Strength.” To Tolkien, that is Might. Power to Tolkien is “Authority.” Which tends to be over things that are not what Tolkien called Mirröanwi (Rational Incarnates who posses Sámar, Hröar, and Fëar — Mind, Will, Body, and Soul), but over beasts, or the physical Nessar of Eä and thus Arda (Nessar are the “Physical” “Materials” — sorry for the strange separate quotes, but each is done to indicate that “Physical” doesn’t necessarily mean “Matter made out of Molecules” and “Materials” doesn’t necessarily mean the “stuff” out of which Hröar and Fëar are “made” — that constitute Matter and Spirit. Tolkien references some arcane theology here).

2. While Gandalf cannot die in the traditional sense of the work, the Fanar (Body of an Ainur) he was “Wearing,” was made of the same Nessar as a Mirróanwi’s Hröa (The Body of a Child of Ilúvatar). It can and did die.

3. This is the source of the insipid questioning of Tom Bombadil being God or an Ainur, when Tolkien categorically states he is neither. Tom isn’t affected by the Ring, in the same way that Asbestos isn’t affected by a typical Fire. The Asbestos isn’t “overpowering” the Fire. It is immune to it. The Fire just “doesn’t really exist” to the Asbestos, in the same way that The Ruling Ring isn’t anything but a lump of metal to Tom.

Tolkien tells us exactly what and who Tom Bombadil is, and his relationship to Middle-earth. This itself is why The Ruling-Ring cannot have any effect on Tom Bombadil, just as the Barrow-wights don’t affect him.

4. This is another issue which people misunderstand.

They tend to (wrongly) think that “All of the Air Spirits were among the People of Manwë.” “All of the Plant Spirits were of the People of Yavanna.” “All of the Water Spirits are of the People of Ulmo.” “All of the Earth Spirits were of the People of Aulë.” … And so on.

ALL of the Valar has spirits of all kinds, many not affiliated with any physical “Element” such as “Fire, Earth, Water, Air, etc.” Arien was of Vána’s People. Vána isn’t a Fire Spirit. Arien herself also led a group of Fire Spirits who were of the People of many different Valar. It was this aspect that drew Morgoth to her, although Morgoth could not overcome her.

5. Also… Just because I continue to cite things related to Catholic and Christian Theology, and the various events related to Tolkien and the Catholic Religion, this does not mean that I personally believe all of these things (nor I am a Christian, when you get down to it, but that is irrelevant).

These things are important because they were the center of Tolkien’s life, and the Foundations upon which he constructed Middle-earth. So knowing what Tolkien believed, and why IS A NECESSITY to understanding his works. Without understanding these things, you wind-up making faulty, flawed assumptions like thinking ”Power === Energy.”

This was an incredible and informative read, thank you!