What PJ got right

Certainly. Disagreement is often the motivation for progress. Without it, it would be a dull world indeed.
It's never 'that' we disagree... it's all about 'how' we disagree. 😁
(The mantra of the Ent.)

I think it interesting that the distinction need be made at all. It is just easier to say "What PG got right" then to include all the entire team, talent, actors, visionaries, and other folks. As I had said in my original post on the thread, PJ is the one who sought and approved of whatever talent and resources they ended up using, it goes without saying that all those folks should get credit too.

We can all certainly agree to disagree on the specific way we are wording our statements, but we are all pretty much in agreement on the broad theme of the thread. Perhaps it would have been easier to name the thread "What the PJ MOVIES got right", but again let's not battle over semantics. Fighting amongst ourselves will ever only benefit the Enemy

Deimos said:

(Oh, wait, firing Liv Tyler would have been a good idea from the get-go).

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What's your grievance with Liv?

LaurelinBearsFruit said:

it goes without saying that all those folks should get credit too.

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There we go with that 'logic' thing again..!

LaurelinBearsFruit said:

Fighting amongst ourselves will ever only benefit the Enemy

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Fortunately, I don't THINK we're fighting... (??) just sharing our opinions - and those are just from different 'angles'.

LaurelinBearsFruit said:

I think it interesting that the distinction need be made at all. It is just easier to say "What PG got right" then to include all the entire team, talent, actors, visionaries, and other folks

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and there we are with "logic" again.

I think it might be time to retire from my 'logic" and "peacemaking' efforts, and turn them over to @LaurelinBearsFruit..!

😀

d4rk3lf said:

Ca

Yeah sure.. but I am not googling you to prove you anything..
LOL. the whole point of the thread is about "What PJ got it right".. and I feel is somewhat offending.
What HE get right?

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I only replied to you because you quoted me directly on it, not the thread title, therefore, it appeared you had an issue with what I said, not the thread title. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Old Ent said:

There we go with that 'logic' thing again..!



Fortunately, I don't THINK we're fighting... (??) just sharing our opinions - and those are just from different 'angles'.


and there we are with "logic" again.

I think it might be time to retire from my 'logic" and "peacemaking' efforts, and turn them over to @LaurelinBearsFruit..!

😀

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Haha well I appreciate that my friend, but I think the mantle of peacemaker is too weighty to bestow upon only one. We trees have to stick together afterall!

CheriptheRipper said:

What's your grievance with Liv?

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"Let me count the ways...." 🙄

Sorry but most of you missed my point *sigh*....
Ultimately one person (the Director) gets the credit/blame for making the right/wrong decisions about movies.
I am not--never have been, never will be-- in the "everyone gets a gold star" camp because "nothing was ever decided upon by a committee."

(Is this a Curmudgeon Badge which I see before me.... Come, let me clutch thee.)

Deimos said:

Sorry but most of you missed my point *sigh*....
Ultimately one person (the Director) gets the credit/blame for making the right/wrong decisions about movies.
I am not--never have been, never will be-- in the "everyone gets a gold star" camp because "nothing was ever decided upon by a committee."

(Is this a Curmudgeon Badge which I see before me.... Come, let me clutch thee.)

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly was thinking along this line in my thought process of defending the PJ movies. And things that do get decided by committees often go astray of the original intention. As the old saying goes, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."

As to how much say PJ had for LotR, let me remind you that he personally got three Oscars at the 76th Academy Awards in 2004.
Best Picture as co-producer, together with Barrie Osborne and Fran Walsh;
Best Director; and
Best Adapted Screenplay, together with Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens.

So for this trilogy, PJ was in a position as few other directors have ever been - with the possible exception of Stanley Kubrick in his Warner Bros. years.

And he had a long pre-production time (in contrast to the TH trilogy). He had say on everything.
He chose Alan Lee and John Howe. He chose Howard Shore. He chose every actor and actress (perhaps not always getting his first choice). He chose Weta (Workshop and Digital) - this may have been a default choice, as Jackson had co-founded Digital with Richard Taylor, who had co-founded Workshop a few years earlier; they sure delivered! He chose the live-filming sites in NZ. He chose which of the often multiple takes of a scene ended up in the films. He chose what scenes to leave on the cutting-room floor completely (thankfully including Xena Arwen and Annatar at the Black Gate).

So to focus on PJ in a discussion of "wrong or right" about the contents of the films is entirely justified.

Olorgando said:

As to how much say PJ had for LotR, let me remind you that he personally got three Oscars at the 76th Academy Awards in 2004.
Best Picture as co-producer, together with Barrie Osborne and Fran Walsh;
Best Director; and
Best Adapted Screenplay, together with Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens.

So for this trilogy, PJ was in a position as few other directors have ever been - with the possible exception of Stanley Kubrick in his Warner Bros. years.
.....

So to focus on PJ in a discussion of "wrong or right" about the contents of the films is entirely justified.

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Thaaaank youuuu..... 😉

Olorgando said:

Annatar at the Black Gate

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I was NOT aware of this. Thankful I could stay unaware of it watching the movies all these years. 😂

Jesting aside, I think Jackson did something no one else ever did or could: Immortalize LOTR on the big screen. How do people picture Middle-Earth? It's most often through Jackson's outfitting of the world. We might have some of our own ideas and thoughts on Middle-Earth and what everything was like, but we cannot deny the impacts of how his movies shape our thinking on this, and in portrayal of book scenes/characters as well.

Visually, the films were magnificent. The wonderful work of Lee and Howe who painstakingly drew designs from the simplest of objects like the pipes to the Arganoth and the Mines of Moria were fantastic. I had been getting the Tolkien calendars since the 70's and Lee and Howe's work were often used in these calendars. Middle Earth looked wonderful and familiar to me.
As a visual director, there were a lot of shots that were spectacular. When Gandalf and Pippin rode Shadowfax and we could see Minas Tirith in the distance, I actually cried in the movie theatre. (The guy sitting next to me was looking at me quizzically ) When the Fellowship left Rivendell and they come through some boulders one by one with Sam leading Bill the Pony was another scene that I loved. The distance shots of Rivendell (again taking Tolkien's original illustration and expanding on it), Helm's Deep, Hobbiton, etc were great.

I read that one of Tolkien's favorite chapters was "The Ride of the Rohirrim". I've read LOTR for decades before the movies came out. But watching the movies and seeing Rohan come to the aid of Gondor after just fighting a devastating battle at Helm's Deep brought this chapter to life. When they arrive at the Pelennor fields, and see the vastness of the enemy, I could remember reading Merry's thoughts, "....They were too late! Too late was worse than never! Perhaps Theoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills." You could see this in the actors' faces. But then Theoden arose in his stirrups. "Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!" Because I was so familiar with the books, this scene had new meaning and depth with the visual depiction and the great acting.

Ironically, because the movies were so very good at the visuals, and had some impressive interpretations and adaptations of certain scenes, that when a scene or character was changed, it was almost jolting (like the wimpification of Frodo, Faramir's character assassination, Frodo sending Sam home on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol (Major Cringe and anger).

But, there are many, many things that are done very well, especially visually bringing Middle Earth to life.

Aramarien said:

But, there are many, many things

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It could be said this was all very well said.
Yes, indeed it could be.

As I'm slow reading The Fellowship of the Ring with a view to getting as far as the Council of Elrond by Christmas, I'm also re-watching the relevant part of the film after reading each chapter. I'm also reading the Hammond and Scull Companion and Fonstad's atlas. Recently I bought a cheap set of the George Martin A Song of Ice and Fire paperbacks and the box set of the TV series. I missed out on this when it first came out (no spoilers please) but I thought it would help me appreciate LOTR better.

Now I think the TV series is pretty good both visually and being faithful to the books. I'm only about 1/3rd the way through book one. The books seem a bit more mundane than Tolkien and also has a kind of board game, war game feel. Throw the dice pick up a card and you can sit on the Iron Throne. Tolkien deals with bigger deeper issues imo.

But it struck me there is a key difference. Sean Bean (who I like a lot as an actor) is the stand out actor for me in Game of Thrones. He was very good as Boromir as well but he was only one of quite a few very good actors in the PJ films. I bought a PJ LOTR box set and I was looking at the extra material on disc one and there was a fascinating interview with Christopher Lee where he was saying that Saruman was a superior wizard compared to Gandalf. Was that a bit of tongue in cheek rivalry with Ian McKellen?

I understand he'd always wanted to play Gandalf himself.

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

..., I think Jackson did something no one else ever did or could: Immortalize LOTR on the big screen. How do people picture Middle-Earth? It's most often through Jackson's outfitting of the world. We might have some of our own ideas and thoughts on Middle-Earth and what everything was like, but we cannot deny the impacts of how his movies shape our thinking on this, and in portrayal of book scenes/characters as well.

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Um, no. Very little presented in these movies portrayed how I saw, and see, Middle Earth. That's right, I have my own mind's eye that has given me visions of it all from repeated readings of the books before these PJ movies came along with his interpretation of what it all looked like.

Having sat through the three theatrical cuts on Netflix this week, I find there is even less PJ got right. A few things I gave him credit for has not withstood the test of time. The opening sequence in the Shire to the Prancing Pony still holds up, so I'll still give him credit for getting that right.

I’m with Glorfindel. Much of how I imagine Middle-earth to be is because of the movies and their design. I grew up knowing the movies before I read the books, and even to this day when I think of anything Tolkien, it will more often than not have the essence of these movies in it, some way or another.

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

I understand he'd always wanted to play Gandalf himself.

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Both McKellen and Lee come across as people who had read the books and could be classed as "fans of Tolkien".

Rivendell_librarian said:

Both McKellen and Lee come across as people who had read the books and could be classed as "fans of Tolkien".

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Christopher Lee actually said that he reads the Lord Of The Rings every year.