What seems inconsistent about the bridge of Khazad-dûm to me

[Deleted member 12094]

There are some aspects about the bridge of Khazad-dûm that were left unexplained in LotR IAFAIK.

This bridge is described in the following text:

At the end of the hall the floor vanished and fell to an unknown depth. The outer door could only be reached by a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet. It was an ancient defence of the Dwarves against any enemy that might capture the First Hall and the outer passages. They could only pass across it in single file.​

This defensive function is rationally explained as long as no alternative entrances to Moria exist on the East side (or internal bypasses) since these would invalidate the defensive reason.

This bridge was destroyed completely during Gandalf's fight with the Balrog:

The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.​

​

Even as Aragorn and Boromir came flying back, the rest of the bridge cracked and fell.​

What I keep wondering about each time I read this is that this strategic destruction did not prevent Gollum from following the Fellowship soon after. Not only that; a whole orc host started the pursuit the same evening. Besides, Aragorn expected them to come, despite the broken bridge:

"The Orcs will not, maybe, come out till after dusk, but we must be far away before nightfall."​

So what to make of this...? Does anyone know of any mention of other gates or ways out of Moria to the East, through which this host could have passed?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I have a vague recollection of an argument that Gollum, hearing the sounds of the orcs approaching the chamber of Mazarbul, retreated by another way, and guessing the Fellowship would make for the doors, preceded them over the bridge and waited for them to emerge. Whether this was in a letter of Tolkien's, or on a thread here, or somewhere else, I can't recall; the source would obviously affect the idea's authority.

As for the orcs, no ideas there, though it wouldn't surprise me if there were alternate ways in and out of the outer hall, if lesser and more difficult, similar to a postern door in a castle.

 

[Alcuin]

I have a vague recollection of an argument that Gollum, hearing the sounds of the orcs approaching the chamber of Mazarbul, retreated by another way, and guessing the Fellowship would make for the doors, preceded them over the bridge and waited for them to emerge. Whether this was in a letter of Tolkien's, or on a thread here, or somewhere else, I can't recall; the source would obviously affect the idea's authority.

As for the orcs, no ideas there, though it wouldn't surprise me if there were alternate ways in and out of the outer hall, if lesser and more difficult, similar to a postern door in a castle.

I, too, seem to recall reading that the Orcs did make alternate exits from Moria, but I can find no references to their means of leaving or of Gollum’s. Gollum seems to have been following them: he climbed the tree to the flet where Frodo was hiding after they passed.

In any case, however, the Orcs would have little difficulty casting ropes across the chasm and fashioning a make-shift bridge suitable for a large troop to gather on the Gate-side to exit once the sun set in the Dimrill Dale. There were after all still Orcs from among those guarding the Great Gate whose captain Aragorn struck down: After they fled from his wrath, they’d nowhere else to go but back into Moria, where they would soon learn what had transpired, and would coöperate with their fellows to bridge the abyss.

But Durin’s Bridge and the single entrance via the Great Gate were defenses of the Dwarves devised by the Dwarves. The Orcs probably found it convenient to make other ways in and out of Moria, and perhaps the Dwarves had, too: secret ways that casual visitors would not know, “postern doors” as SeS puts it.

 

[Gothmog]

One thought about this.

It was an ancient defence of the Dwarves against any enemy that might capture the First Hall and the outer passages.

Since it was "ancient" it is likely that it is from when Khazad-dûm was first delved. Since then the Dwarves would have expanded the halls and tunnels through the mountains and likely have made other entrances and ways that would not go through that chamber. After the Orcs took possession they would probably have made sure that they had other ways in and out.

 

[Olorgando]

Yes, I'm thinking of the secret entrance to Erebor that the Dwarves and Bilbo had to find, or that side door in the Hornburg at Helm's Deep from which Aragorn led a sortie against the attackers on the causeway and ramp that led up to the Hornburg-gates (and which "inspired" PJ to that inane Gimli "toss me" scene). Seems to have been standard procedure for fortifications to have such often secret and disguised alternative entries / exits, for thousands of years in the real world. So JRRT felt no need to be explicit on the matter?

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Thanks all for answering, well appreciated!

So JRRT felt no need to be explicit on the matter?

Exactly, that's what was nagging me mostly. All assumptions here point the same way, but we are all trying to "explain" the parts left out...! Happens more often in JRRT's writings!

 

[Olorgando]

Well, yes, that bit of "unexplored vistas" hovering on the horizon, tantalizing but blurred, which has more than once been called a special appeal of LoTR.
Of course myth-internal, quite a bit of this has come into focus by publication of the Sil, the UT, then the monumental HoMe spread out over 14 years.
The latter caused some readers to respond with "ew, I really didn't wasnt to see that in so much detail!"
Same can simply hold true for "borrowings" from the real world, here assuming a certain minimum knowledge about things from medieval and more ancient historical times.

I actually found the letter quoted in another thread that kind of bears on the question, No. 187, a draft, apparently sent with some reduction in April 1956 as per a note by JRRT:

"Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy. Botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë; and historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor (something echoed by some gripes by George R.R. Martin in another thread); general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five). It will be a big volume, even if I attend only to the things revealed to my limited understanding!"

Yup, we need an Encyclopedia Britannica for Middle-earth. Well, Robert Foster's "Guide" (two editions), J.E.A. Tyler's "Companion", Friedhelm Schneidewind's "Lexicon" (in German, also two editions) and the books by Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond are probably as close as we'll ever get. 😟

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I want to clarify my mention of "postern doors" earlier: I wasn't suggesting any such for entrances into Moria proper -- though I wouldn't necessarily rule them out, either -- but using them as an example of "side doors", which can (and did) exist within a castle, as well as in a curtain wall, say. If we remember that, on leaving the chasm, the company had to pass through a door, up "great stairs", along a "wide echoing passage", across a hall (presumably the "First Hall"), through more doors, finally reaching the Great Gates, it strikes me that a number of opportunities existed for the stone-mastering Dwarves to create small passages that would go unnoticed by other races. And, as Gothmog says, the orcs, with their underground skills, should be kept in mind as well.

Of course, this is all speculation, part of the game of filling in the "unexplored vistas" Olorgando mentioned -- an addiction, for Tolkien readers. I notice, in rereading the relevant passage, the sketchiness of description, in contrast both with earlier scenes in Moria, and especially with the lyrical painting of the Dale and geography in the next chapter. I feel this was deliberate: a fuller description of the halls, in the "chase scene" would have slowed the action; the more detailed scenery-painting at the beginning of the next chapter, though not without tension, contributes to the feeling of respite.

You're quite right, Merroe, that we, as Tolkien lovers, tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, when it comes perceived inconsistencies in the text; well, that's only to be expected here.

I believe I mentioned once an exchange with a roommate, long ago, on the subject of Star Trek; he was as heavily invested in the franchise as most of us are in Tolkien, and had a plausible answer to every objection. Some of them stretched credibility, I have to say; we -- mostly -- try to remain within the bounds of reason, I hope.

To expand a little on "flaws": Tolkien himself lamented the "flaws, large and small" he found in the published text (at least I think those were his words -- I find that the beat-up copy of Fellowship I have with me is missing the first 18 pages!), and this statement has been used against him by Tolkien-bashers, often in what I would consider badly mistaken critical assessments. Someone was on here -- briefly -- last year, pointing out perceived "flaws" in Tolkien's writing. I didn't mention it at the time, but I was reminded of a quote from Northrop Frye: "For most of the flaws the beginning critic thinks he detects in a writer's works, the response 'but it's supposed to be that way' is usually sufficient". (This is not directed at you, Merroe! )

 

[Gothmog]

I didn't mention it at the time, but I was reminded of a quote from Northrop Frye: "For most of the flaws the beginning critic thinks he detects in a writer's works, the response 'but it's supposed to be that way' is usually sufficient".

And if not then pointing out that the book with no flaws has not been written should answer the rest

 

[Olorgando]

To repeat myself from "Tolkien Media", "Other Related Topics", thread "George R. R. Martin says LOTR has Plotholes": It's a matter of taste (which includes tastelessness).

And Alcuin mentioned, in his post there, besides G.R.R. Martin, also Michael Moorcock. Shippey mentions some others who have written in the wide field of Fantasy's sub-genres:
Terry Brooks ("Shannara"), Stephen Donaldson ("Thomas Covenant"), Terry Pratchett, Alan Garner. From two collections of short (and sometimes not that short) stories which were published in Germany by German editors during around the times both film series came out: Andrzej Sapkowski, Ursula K Le Guin, Neil Gaiman, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Lord Dunsany, E.R. Eddison, Tanith Lee, plus some mentioned already above. From my own reading in younger years I would add Edgar Rice Burroughs (less "Tarzan", that too) "John Carter of Mars".
There must be dozens if not hundreds of writers, and all (or most) have an audience of sorts. Perhaps one should include JRRT's fellow Inkling Charles Williams, whose books seem to have been as difficult to squash into neat little drawers as LoTR (and had a rather small, if devoted following). Inklings. C.S. Lewis. Narnia. 'nuff said.

 

[tspnyc]

I will pipe in on this one here to say it is possible the answer was originally explicit, but was cut out at some point, perhaps by accident.

From reading his son's "The History of..." books, this seems to have been a fairly common occurrence as various drafts were rewritten. e.g. All references to Treebeard and the ents being "giants" were removed (Ent being Old English for giant,) and references to ents being people in the same way that men, hobbits, elves, and dwarves are, with hair and skin and toes, were virtually removed until people feel they can argue that they are somehow directly evolved from trees, and we ended up with them actually being walking talking trees as depicted in the films.

Actually Sam refers to giants as "tall as an elm tree" rumored to be seen in a remote part of the Shire. And the Hobbit references the "stone giants" but there is nothing to suggest they are actually made of stone and skyscraper-size rock'em-sock'em robots at that. That suggests there may be more than one kind of giant, with Treebeard's variety being wood ents just like there are wood elves, neither being made out of wood.

Since a novel with vague or unexplained turns of event is fiction, we can be free to decide the how or why such things occur. I like to keep this one simple by believing Gollum got over the bridge in anticipation of their exit.

As for "mistakes," Professor Tolkien referred to his novel as being full of them, but he chose to keep them to himself, although he seemed to bristle with logical arguments to defend them if someone wrote him letter to point out some inconsistency or other.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

There are some aspects about the bridge of Khazad-dûm that were left unexplained in LotR IAFAIK.

This bridge is described in the following text:

At the end of the hall the floor vanished and fell to an unknown depth. The outer door could only be reached by a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet. It was an ancient defence of the Dwarves against any enemy that might capture the First Hall and the outer passages. They could only pass across it in single file.​

This defensive function is rationally explained as long as no alternative entrances to Moria exist on the East side (or internal bypasses) since these would invalidate the defensive reason.

This bridge was destroyed completely during Gandalf's fight with the Balrog:

Fortresses were rarely built with a sole entrance (pardon if this has already been explains). The postern-gate on Helm’s Keep is one such example.

These other entrances, though, where usually built to be trivially obstructed, or defended.

Whereas the main entrance/exit to a fortress of some kind was the only real means to pass an army through the Fortress (either coming, or going). I am more interested in that bridge for other reasons. Because the "Main Entrance" also needed to be large enough to pass something else through, that is vastly more important than an army: Food, Water, Tools, Materiel, and Garbage/other Waste.

Now, I suspect that Khazad-Dûm did not have problems with waste disposal (a combination of deep-pits and furnaces deals with that problem). Likewise, it probably didn’t have many problems with fresh water (Heck! they probably even had hot-cold Running Water. If the Romans did, I expect Dwarfs too, to have it). But food...

When the Ancient Trope saying "An army travels on its stomach." was first spoken, few truer words could be said. And this is DOUBLY TRUE for Cities, which is ultimately what Khazad-Dûm was. And by the description of its size, and Gimili’s statements about it, Khazad-Dûm likely had between 250,000 and 500,000 Dwarves in it at its height.

To give an idea of what a city of 1,000,000+ requires, daily just to keep up its food supplies, it requires about 5,000 Truckloads/day. Ancient Rome was little different, save that it contained more livestock, poultry, and local gardens to produce seasonal items, locally. That offset maybe 1/5 of the required "import" of food.

That little bridge isn’t going to be able to handle all of that traffic, coming and going (that is 5,000/day coming, and 5,000/day going).

I suspect that the dwarves had other entrances that were not directly connected to the "Fortress" portion of the city that had such Infrastructure.

Tolkien was marvelous at building the cultures of Middle-earth, but he often dropped the ball on things like Infrastructure Support for a population, or things like Predator-Prey relations for how big a population would need to be (remember, Humanity and Dwarves are a Prey Population to Orcs — many more people had to live in Middle-earth than Tolkien immediately reveals due to the necessary Infrastructure needed to support what he does describe, and to support the populations of feral Orcs that seem to exist).

The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.​

​

Even as Aragorn and Boromir came flying back, the rest of the bridge cracked and fell.​

What I keep wondering about each time I read this is that this strategic destruction did not prevent Gollum from following the Fellowship soon after. Not only that; a whole orc host started the pursuit the same evening. Besides, Aragorn expected them to come, despite the broken bridge:

"The Orcs will not, maybe, come out till after dusk, but we must be far away before nightfall."​

So what to make of this...? Does anyone know of any mention of other gates or ways out of Moria to the East, through which this host could have passed?

As I said above, there MUST BE such ‘gates’ or ‘passages’ into/out-of Moria for the reasons I mentioned above.

In these passages, Tolkien is at least giving us a hint that such passages exist, even if he is not consciously and intentionally aware that they do exist (I suspect he did know they would exist, but the reasons the characters would not have known specifics are legion).

It is the difficulty in getting large numbers of people through such ‘Postern’ Entrances/Exits/Gates that was likely why Aragorn knew their pursuit would be delayed in setting out after them, as the Orcs would need to re-group, and then plan on which such Postern-Gate was most convenient (and in repair/functioning) for their needs. Then they would have to march the distance to it, pass through it in single-file, and then re-group outside of Khazad-Dûm.

MB

 

[Matthew Bailey]

Thanks all for answering, well appreciated!



Exactly, that's what was nagging me mostly. All assumptions here point the same way, but we are all trying to "explain" the parts left out...! Happens more often in JRRT's writings!

In reading The History of Middle-earth, or The Letters of JRR Tolkien if one pays very close attention, you will see evidence that Tolkien did explain most things (but not all), even if only to himself.

It was this very need for an explanation for some very important things that caused Tolkien to be unable to complete his works. Without the answers he was looking for, further progress seemed to him to be impossible (He actually kept discovering the answers he sought, he just kept rejecting them because he didn’t like them, or "couldn’t conceive of something so Evil.")

MB

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'd just point out that, at the height of Moria's greatness, the main passage of goods most likely came and went through the west end -- Durin's Doors. That was the interface between Dwarves and Elves.

 

[Gothmog]

Matthew, while I agree completely with your points on the Great city of the Dwarrowdelf there is also another point to be considered in respect to the description of the bridge as "an ancient defense of the Dwarves". Khazad-Dûm was carved into the mountains not built upon them.

When the Ancient Trope saying "An army travels on its stomach." was first spoken, few truer words could be said. And this is DOUBLY TRUE for Cities, which is ultimately what Khazad-Dûm was. And by the description of its size, and Gimili’s statements about it, Khazad-Dûm likely had between 250,000 and 500,000 Dwarves in it at its height.

If we go back to the ancient times when Khazad-Dûm was not even a Dwarven Town the inner chambers could well have been simply a refuge in time of need while they were still in the process of carving out the larger works that would include the addition of other entrances on the side of the mountain and the paths through to the other side.

 

[Alcuin]

It occurred to me as I reread this thread tonight that although Durin’s Bridge is an “ancient defense”, that doesn’t mean that during the days of the power of the Dwarf Kingdom that it was exposed. By that I mean that it might well always have been there, but not visible.

Consider this: Suppose you want to maintain a robust defensive position, the narrow bridge, but you need to bring in supplies (food, for instance) while allowing people and goods to leave (tools, armies, what-not). Why not build a wide, wooden bridge over the narrow stone passage? No one would see the narrow bridge, the “ancient defense”, only the wooden structure, which could be easily maintained (it was not exposed to the elements), concealing from many even the existence of the defensive nature of the abyss and its narrow path. A wooden superstructure would be easily demolished in any emergency, leaving only the narrow stone arch to serve its original purpose as “an ancient defense”; and moreover, it could be easily replaced when the crisis passed.

Granted that explanation is a kludge, but it does overcome the problem Matthew Bailey has pointed out. And Tolkien mentions no other obvious entrances to Khazad-dûm from the east.

 

[Aldarion]

I think most of you are missing the obvious explanation, mentioned by @Squint-eyed Southerner : only a minor part of the whole complex lies east of the Bride of Khazad-Doom. Most of it is to the West. And Western entrance is not necessarily the only entrance to Moria on the western side. And even if it were, we do not know that Moria is not fully self-sufficient: they could have numerous exits to mountain valleys, mushroom-growing areas etc., enabling the complex to be mostly self-sufficient with respect to food. We already know they have running water in the mines.

That being said, I do not think Tolkien gave civilian logistics second thought - or first thought, for that matter. Minas Tirith works perfectly as a fortress, but is absolute nightmare of a city: a city of that size ought to have had multiple gates, and definitely no sssnaking passssage sssnaking around the mountain, My Preciouss. That zig-zagging road means that it is basically impossible for anyone to live anywhere other than lowest or lowest two levels. I found these if you are interesting while trying to find a document detailling how that logistical quagmire might have been resolved:

The Logistics of Minas Tirith

I wrote this text about 20 years ago for the now-defunct Tolkien gaming journal Other Hands. It deals with issue of city planning in a fantasy context. Minas Tirith is a city planner’s nightmare—a …

gondica.wordpress.com

“Urban Legend: Architecture in The Lord of the Rings,” with Steven Woodward, in From Hobbits to Hollywood: Essays on Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, ed. Ernest Mathijs and Murray Pomerance (Amsterdam and New York: Rodopi, 2006), pp. 189-214.

“Urban Legend: Architecture in The Lord of the Rings,” with Steven Woodward, in From Hobbits to Hollywood: Essays on Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, ed. Ernest Mathijs and Murray Pomerance (Amsterdam and New York: Rodopi, 2006), pp. 189-214.

www.academia.edu

 

[Gothmog]

I'd just point out that, at the height of Moria's greatness, the main passage of goods most likely came and went through the west end -- Durin's Doors. That was the interface between Drawers and Elves.

And at this point in time the bridge was already "ancient" and therefore most likely to be from just after the initial founding of Khazad-Dûm by Durin who started the works from the East. Everyone keeps talking about how Khazad-Dûm would not have only one entrance for such a great city while forgetting that the bridge was an Ancient defense and from before there was a great city of the Dwarves there. When the Dwarves first started delving there it is hardly likely that their first work would have been to dig out multiple entrances to what was at the time, a couple of halls just below the surface of the mountain.

 

[Olorgando]

And by the description of its size, and Gimili’s statements about it, Khazad-Dûm likely had between 250,000 and 500,000 Dwarves in it at its height.

This estimate seems to me to be massively too high. Forty miles from gate to gate was Gandalf's estimate, which sounds like a lot.
But you can only excavate a mountain (or anything underground - much of older Paris was built with stone quarried from directly beneath it) so far before things start collapsing at least locally.
Matthew did point out one item, about supplies: assuming an average big truck as carrying 20 tons (20 000 kilograms, 44 000 pounds) each, that comes down to 100 000 tons a day.
OK, that was for a modern city of 1 million. Still 25 000 tons a day, 25 million kilograms or 55 million pounds. Meaning each and every dwarf of those 250 000 would have had to lug in (and also out) 220 pounds of supplies each and every day ...
OK, we (should) know that of those 5 000 trucks a day, only a fraction are carrying real necessities of life (the rest is advertising brainwash). Certainly from the point of view of a Dwarf. So I'll just give a wild guess that the necessities of a Dwarf are at most 10% of what our modern-day trucks lug in and out. Still a lot of stuff. Do you go shopping for 22 pounds of stuff each day???
And in anything underground - of for that matter high-rise buildings without windows that can be opened to let in some fresh air - ventilation is a big issue. Mostly get that carbon dioxide that all aerobic creatures breathe out with every breath we take (yep, we're a non-trivial source of CO2 just through our breathing - and never mind triathlons and stuff like that!) Possibly the Dwarves had lower Oxygen needs that we did - but then they were miners, which is very strenuous work, so that's unlikely; a tolerance for higher concentrations of CO2 is conceivable, exists in the real-world mammal kingdom (or whatever the correct term is). It's like an unanswered question about Elven smith-work in Valinor (and elsewhere) - Fëanor inventing swords etc. etc. etc. Where are the slag heaps from smelting? For that matter, where are the huge heaps of rubble from the mining? In today's huge pit mines, there are only miniscule amounts of whatever metal is wanted in masses of useless rock. Oh yeah, the Orcs are taken to task for all of their slag and rubble heaps; how did the Elves avoid all that? Don't tell me there was garbage export like there is today, and no one, ever, anywhere, ever ex- or imported useless rock!

 

[Alcuin]

I’m not sure Tolkien is very concerned about things like middens and slag-heaps. I’m sure he knew what a midden is, but archeologists dig through the remains of privies to determine what people ate and to get a good idea of their general state of health; those don’t sound like Tolkienesque topics to me. The same with slag-heaps: I can see where the leavings of Dwarvish, Mannish, and especially Elvish mining and smithing might be of considerable interest; but the only references to slag-heaps and similar ideas that I can recall are associated with Thangorodrim, Mordor, and a detailed description of the desert of southern Dagorlad before the gates of Udûn into Mordor (when Frodo approaches the Towers of the Teeth).

Tolkien does mention that Gandalf chose to avoid a path in Moria that had “foul air”. I believe he did note that the upper levels of Moria through which the Company passed were reasonably clear as far as the air was concerned, at least until they fled from their initial encounter with the Balrog in the Chamber of Mazarbul and found the air in the narrow passage they took beyond the door hot and stuffy. And he mentions noxious fumes in the Dead Marshes, Dagorlad, Torech Shelob, and especially crossing Gorgoroth. Besides the stench, there was vile refuse of all sorts in Shelob’s Lair. But while Tolkien was undoubtedly concerned with trees and meadows and farms, all of which were remembrances of his real-world youth, I don’t believe his interests extended to the minutia of the disposal of wastes, whether from manufacture or of personal necessities: certainly personal necessities are never mentioned, something a “modern” writer might share in brutally exquisite and unbecoming detail: that just isn’t Tolkien’s style, I think.