What was the biggest cause of tragedies in Turin Turambar's life?

[Turin_Turambar]

This question is a much discussed topic among Tolkien scholars and fans alike. What do you think was the worst influence on Turin's life? I think that Turin's stubbornness and arrogance was a bigger problem than Morgoth's curse. If Turin had returned to Doriath or had followed the advice of the Elves, I think his life would have been much better off despite Morgoth's curse.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Perhaps, that he was so impatient?
If he only had a little more patience, many bad thing wouldn't happened to him, and yeah, I could agreed that was also stubbornness and arrogance, but impatience leads him to become like that.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Perhaps, that he was so impatient?
If he only had a little more patience, many bad thing wouldn't happened to him, and yeah, I could agreed that was also stubbornness and arrogance, but impatience leads him to become like that.

I think stubbornness underlies his impatience. Throughout the story, he did not listen to anyone, including the elven kings. Because he found his own ideas more correct. And he paid a heavy price for it.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

This question is a much discussed topic among Tolkien scholars and fans alike. What do you think was the worst influence on Turin's life? I think that Turin's stubbornness and arrogance was a bigger problem than Morgoth's curse. If Turin had returned to Doriath or had followed the advice of the Elves, I think his life would have been much better off despite Morgoth's curse.

I agree with you.

I think it was his rather obnoxious pride and stubbornness that cause the downfall of many things in his life. For indeed pride it was that drove him to distrust in the Elves. The curse of Morgoth was a hideous blow upon him indeed, but had he harbored patience, acceptance, and humility, he would have been able to grow stronger through it, and he may have had a life far greater.

Arrogance and pride I feel are the root cause of everything for him, and a pity indeed it is that such things he harbored.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Arrogance and pride I feel are the root cause of everything for him, and a pity indeed it is that such things he harbored.

Indeed it was also for Féanaro, was it not?

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Indeed it was also for Féanaro, was it not?

It was indeed.

 

[Baron]

So I chose the lies of Glaurung, I was torn between that and Turin's stubbornness and arrogance. My goodness he was stubborn though!

 

[Radaghast]

Túrin Turambar is his own greatest enemy. Simply by acting rationally, an not pridefully, he could have thwarted Morgoth's schemes at practically every step.

 

[Baron]

Absolutely, his rashness to act! He made all the wrong choices! One of the greatest tales in my opinion.

 

[Eljorahir]

Morgoth to Hurin:
"Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."

Hurin to Morgoth:
"You speak in vain. For you cannot see them, nor govern them from afar: not while you keep this shape, and desire still to be a king visible on earth."

Was it the curse which caused Beleg to accidentally poke Turin's foot while cutting him free (leading to Beleg's death by Turin)?

Was it the curse which caused Turin to unknowingly sit at Saeros's accustomed seat at the dinner table (leading to Saeros's death)?

The exchange between Morgoth and Hurin suggests that initially Hurin did not believe Morgoth's curse had any meaning. Although, at the end of his life I think Hurin came to believe otherwise.

On my next read-through of The Children of Hurin, I'll have to keep this question in mind: "Did the curse itself have any real effects on Turin?" I'll probably conclude that there's no way to know for sure. (That's the trouble with curses...you never really know.)

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Túrin Turambar is his own greatest enemy. Simply by acting rationally, an not pridefully, he could have thwarted Morgoth's schemes at practically every step.

This is so true.

 

[Radaghast]

Let's not forget that Túrin kills two innocents. One, Beleg, by accident, but a product of his hotheadedness and impulsiveness (kill first, regret that decision later). The other, Brandir, due to spiteful rage (and calls him "Clubfoot" before committing the foul deed to boot).

This removes any sense of sympathy I might have had for Túrin and I fail to see why he should be the slayer of Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath (whether that was meant to be canon or not). If you ask me, the logical choice is Húrin.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Let's not forget that Túrin kills two innocents. One, Beleg, by accident, but a product of his hotheadedness. The other, Brandir, due to spiteful rage (and calls him "Clubfoot" before committing the foul deed to boot).

This removes any sense of sympathy I might have had for Túrin and I fail to see why he should be the slayer of Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath (whether that was meant to be canon or not). If you ask me, the logical choice is Húrin.

oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.

 

[Radaghast]

Not really the point of my post, but sure.

Btw, I changed my vote from "his wrong decisions" to "his stubbornness and arrogance" since the former were caused by the latter. They go hand in hand.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.

Good points.

 

[Gothmog]

Morgoth to Hurin:
"Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."

Hurin to Morgoth:
"You speak in vain. For you cannot see them, nor govern them from afar: not while you keep this shape, and desire still to be a king visible on earth."

Was it the curse which caused Beleg to accidentally poke Turin's foot while cutting him free (leading to Beleg's death by Turin)?

Was it the curse which caused Turin to unknowingly sit at Saeros's accustomed seat at the dinner table (leading to Saeros's death)?

The exchange between Morgoth and Hurin suggests that initially Hurin did not believe Morgoth's curse had any meaning. Although, at the end of his life I think Hurin came to believe otherwise.

On my next read-through of The Children of Hurin, I'll have to keep this question in mind: "Did the curse itself have any real effects on Turin?" I'll probably conclude that there's no way to know for sure. (That's the trouble with curses...you never really know.)

The "curse of Morgoth" is in the same category as "Fate". It is a set of conditions imposed by others on a person. However, "Free-will" allows that person to have different answers as to how S/he deals with it. In Arda, the Free-will of Man is in fact more powerful than the Curse of Morgoth or the Music of the Ainur. So the choices of Turin Turamabar were the greatest bane of his own life. Each time the Curse caused some difficulty to him he could have chosen a different path and confounded Morgoth completely. Turin chose the name Turamabar and could have proven his power over Morgoth but instead kept choosing the wrong path due to his stubbornness and ended as "A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered!"

oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.

Turin is not the murderer or killer or any other type of death dealer of Morgoth Bauglir. He has not returned to fight in the Dagor Dagorath. There has been no Dagor Dagorath as all that you claim is only part of a Prophecy (which may or may not be accurate). A prophecy is something that is foretold to happen in the future. Dagor Dagorath is a battle at the end of the time of Arda. According to JRR Tolkien, we are living in Arda.

 

[Eljorahir]

The "curse of Morgoth" is in the same category as "Fate". It is a set of conditions imposed by others on a person. However, "Free-will" allows that person to have different answers as to how S/he deals with it. In Arda, the Free-will of Man is in fact more powerful than the Curse of Morgoth or the Music of the Ainur. So the choices of Turin Turamabar were the greatest bane of his own life. Each time the Curse caused some difficulty to him he could have chosen a different path and confounded Morgoth completely. Turin chose the name Turamabar and could have proven his power over Morgoth but instead kept choosing the wrong path due to his stubbornness and ended as "A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered!"

A very thought-provoking response...thanks.

 

[Baron]

Turin because he is deeply flawed makes me love his character more, he is human, makes bad decisions, doesn't learn from his mistakes, stubborn, just like me!
Difference is I would run a mile from Glaurung 🤣

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Difference is I would run a mile from Glaurung 🤣

You wouldn't fight it?

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

You wouldn't fight it?

If he did, he'd fall. Would that such Fate not befall him!