What was the evil in Minas Morgul?

[Amaya]

During the last debate while debating whether to assail Minas Morgul, Gandalf talks of "evil that dwelt in the valley, where the minds of living men would turn to madness and horror" (Black Gate Opens, p 884).

Is this a reference to the Nazgûl? Or some other type of evil?

 

[Ent]

A couple notes:
IMLAD MORGUL (S.: ‘valley of black magic’) Valley in the western side of the Ephel Dúath, through which the Morgulduin flowed. Minas Morgul was located at the head of the valley. During the WR the Captains of the West set fire to the evil meadows of Imlad Morgul and broke the bridge across the Morgulduin, but even after the War the terror of the valley was too great for it to be resettled. Also called Morgul Vale, Morgulvale, the Valley of the Wraiths, and the valley of Living Death. (II 388, 397 ff.; ’93 ed. 361, 369 ff.; ’01 ed. 345, 353 ff. III 197–98, 305; ’93 ed. 178, 276; ’01 ed. 167, 267. S 361. B 452.)
Foster, Robert. The Complete Guide to Middle-earth: Tolkien's World in The Lord of the Rings and Beyond (p. 268). Random House Worlds. Kindle Edition.

Imlad Morgul ‘Vale of Sorcery’ (Sind.) – One of the western valleys of the Mountains of Shadow, lying only twenty miles north-east of the bridges of Osgiliath. It was guarded by the evil tower of Minas Morgul and watered by the Morgulduin, once the Ithilduin, flowing gently down through Ithilien to the Anduin. The valley, the tower and the river were all renamed in Gondor after the fall of Minas Ithil to the Nazgûl (in 2002 Third Age). The waters of the Morgulduin were poisonous, and the loathsome white flowers in the meadows of the valley produced noxious vapours; rottenness and decay filled Imlad Morgul. At the end of the Third Age the vegetation there was burned to the rock and the evil tower was thrown down for ever.
Tyler, J. E. A.. The Complete Tolkien Companion (pp. 412-413). St. Martin's Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Conclusion so far: a reference to more than just teh Nazgul.

the Lord of the Nazgul is also known as the Morgul-lord, and other fascinating titles. Morgul Vale seems to be a hang-out for all sorts of wraiths, poisonous flowers, a foul river, and much other nasty-ness able to twist the minds of men and instill unnatural fear etc.

 

[Ent]

Yes in some respects, as an addition to the notes above, we could liken the issues of the Morgul Vale to the situation of the Barrow Downs in some respects.
As the barrows were filled with spirits/wraiths of former battles and events, so the Morgul Vale is the scene of particularly evil wars and events in prior times.
It's a bit of a consistent theme with Mr. Tolkien... 'evil lingers' in many ways, and its impact can be quite tangible.

This particular point could be taken somewhat farther, contrasting it with his expressions of the impact of 'good' for example...but the Ent will refrain for now.

In any event, thanks for giving me a nudge to look into the Morgul Vale issue just a teeny bit more. I await correction by those of greater lore and knowledge than myself.

 

[Eljorahir]

Gandalf talks of "evil that dwelt in the valley, where the minds of living men would turn to madness and horror"

The "minds turned to madness and horror" does seem to be associated with the Nazgul in many different encounters (of varying intensity depending on the location and nature of the encounter). Comparing and contrasting how Tolkien's description of fear varies with the adversary might be most interesting. Here are few snippets...

Nazgul:
Fatty Bolger at Crickhollow: "A feeling of fear had been growing on him all day...brooding threat...Terror seized him..."

Merry at Bree: "Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near...began to tremble all over...terrified..."

Pippin with Beregond at the wall: "...stricken dumb...frozen...cowered...piercing the heart with poisonous despair..."

The Dead Oathbreakers:
Gimli at the Paths of the Dead: "My blood runs chill...His knees shook...dread so heavy that he could hardly walk..."

The Barrow-wight:
Frodo: "...icy cold...his fear was so great that it seemed to be a part of the very darkness that was round him...chilled to the marrow..."

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The drafts at one point have Frodo and Sam being caught in, and escaping from, Minas Morgul. -- or what became Minas Morgul in the final text.

 

[Olorgando]

During the last debate while debating whether to assail Minas Morgul, Gandalf talks of "evil that dwelt in the valley, where the minds of living men would turn to madness and horror" (Black Gate Opens, p 884).
Is this a reference to the Nazgûl? Or some other type of evil?

At the time of the last debate, some of the Nazgûl could still have been in Minas Morgul. After the destruction of the One Ring, and the remaining Nazgûl with it, this effect should be eliminated.
But then there's the matter of plain old pollution. Think of what the Shire looked like after a few weeks or months of Sharkey and his ruffians having a go. The Nazgûl were in that place for 1,000 years, with Orcs as their minions. It's safe to assume that their waste disposal techniques left very much to be desired.

Or just think of the condition of the average teenager's room, or the average college dorm room (and never mind fraternities!) ...

 

[Deimos]

At the time of the last debate, some of the Nazgûl could still have been in Minas Morgul. After the destruction of the One Ring, and the remaining Nazgûl with it, this effect should be eliminated.
But then there's the matter of plain old pollution. Think of what the Shire looked like after a few weeks or months of Sharkey and his ruffians having a go. The Nazgûl were in that place for 1,000 years, with Orcs as their minions. It's safe to assume that their waste disposal techniques left very much to be desired.

Or just think of the condition of the average teenager's room, or the average college dorm room (and never mind fraternities!) ...

Good heavens... just look at my garage (the car won't even fit in it) 🙄😄

 

[Olorgando]

Good heavens... just look at my garage (the car won't even fit in it) 🙄😄

Your garage is only meant to fit one car? But then JRRT used his garage - in one house - as a study in which he did writing, and for storage ... after having gotten rid of the only car he ever owned at the beginning of WW II (good thing too, apparently - with what's described of his driving "skills", he'd lose his license within a week now!).
And I refuse to discuss our cellar compartment or the room my computer is located in (though both of them suffer more from being over-stuffed rather than being poisonous ...)

 

[Deimos]

Your garage is only meant to fit one car? But then JRRT used his garage - in one house - as a study in which he did writing, and for storage ... after having gotten rid of the only car he ever owned at the beginning of WW II (good thing too, apparently - with what's described of his driving "skills", he'd lose his license within a week now!).
And I refuse to discuss our cellar compartment or the room my computer is located in (though both of them suffer more from being over-stuffed rather than being poisonous ...)

Oh no...it's meant for TWO... that's what makes it really bad 😬