What would happen if 🧙Gandalf took on the 💀Nazgul with Frodo?

[Helm]

I think that only applies when the ring is worn. As soon as Frodo put the ring in the Sammath Naur on Sauron was aware of him. But, it's obviously a proximity thing since when Sam wore it he wasn't noticed. And that was within Mordor.

Frodo claimed the Ring, Sam did not. Also I think that because Frodo had the Ring for a long time, if he put on the Ring inside Mordor, Sauron would have 'seen' him. But Sam, because he didn't have the Ring for a long time was not 'seen' by Sauron.

Yes Sauron did leave the Ring in Barad-dur. Do you really think the last king of Numenor would have left the Ring in a vault when he left for the war on the Valar?!?

If Melkor could not get the Secret Fire for himself, I doubt Celebrimbor could 'use' part of the Secret Fire in G Ring. And no the Sun Cannot = the Secret Fire!! The Secret Fire was there at the begining, Varda (I think) made the Sun. She made it out of the remains of one of the two Trees. Earlier she made the Trees grow. Now if melkor could not get the Secret Fire, how could she? Also I one of you quoted:

"Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."

Now since the Secret Fire was at the heart of the World, HOW CAN IT BE THE SUN??!!?!?!?

 

[Inderjit S]

Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor-he wasn't go to war against the Valar himself.

If the bearer doesn't wear the ring then it is harder to sense them-Elrond and Gandalg don't sense the One Ring when Bilbo was wearing it, and Sam states that if he put the ring on in Mordor Sauron would notice him.

 

[Entmoot]

Helm, you're right, Gandalf does not wield the Secret Fire. I don't believe I've mixed any of them up so far. Let me know if I have.

Here's the quote again.

'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!'

There are three separate fires or flames referenced. Two of them reference good power while one of them references an evil source. Gandalf has two fires on his side while the Balrog only has one.

1. The Secret Fire i.e. Eru, Flame Imperishable, Ilúvatar, The One etc.. Gandalf says he serves Eru.

2. The Flame of Anor. Gandalf claims to wield the flame of anor. Anor means sun so here Gandalf is claiming to wield the light of the sun. I believe this refers to Gandalf's wielding the Ring of Fire but the passage is clearly open to interpretation.

3 The Flame of Udun. Gandalf calls the Balrog a Flame of Udun. Udun was Melkor's first stronghold more commonly called Utumno.

 

[Entmoot]

Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor

How do you know this? We have one quote saying Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". While this quote is typically not as clear as I'd like it seems to indicate that Sauron left his ring at home when he went visiting.

1. It may seem unlikely after reading LOTR but Sauron was actually in danger in Numenor. Sauron wouldn't have gone as a hostage if he could have beaten them directly. Sauron would leave the ring at home because he wouldn't want Ar-Pharazôn to seize it.

2. If the ring was at home that would resolve how Sauron got it back after Numenor sank and he became an incorporeal spirit. Once Sauron reformed the ring was right where he left it.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

How do you know this? We have one quote saying Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". While this quote is typically not as clear as I'd like it seems to indicate that Sauron left his ring at home when he went visiting.

1. It may seem unlikely after reading LOTR but Sauron was actually in danger in Numenor. Sauron wouldn't have gone as a hostage if he could have beaten them directly. Sauron would leave the ring at home because he wouldn't want Ar-Pharazôn to seize it.

2. If the ring was at home that would resolve how Sauron got it back after Numenor sank and he became an incorporeal spirit. Once Sauron reformed the ring was right where he left it.

I think it's highly unlikely that Sauron would have left his Ring behind--but if he had, he could have left it in the hands of the Nazgul. They seem to be the only servants he completely trusted--he did, after all, send them to retrieve the Ring at the end of the Third Age.

It's more likely, however, that he kept the Ring on his person, but was able to keep it hidden. As he still possessed a "body" at that time, he could afford to rely less upon the Ring's power and more upon his own guile.

As for being an incorporeal spirit after the destruction of Numenor, I don't think this would have prevented him from bearing the Ring. The Nazgul were incorporeal--and at least one of them was expected to bear the Ring back to Sauron, if they had seized it from Frodo.

 

[Inderjit S]

Jeez, why can't you guys be more trusting

Ar-Pharazôn, as told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal surrender was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the wills of most Númenoreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring...)...Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Well, that's settled.

 

[Aiglos]

Narya is the only ring talked about at length in the text of LOTR, as at the council of Elrond.

We cannot be sure of the power of Nenya or Vilya. Other than the catch-all passage about them being "ever at work" enriching life, understanding etc. it doesn't say much else....

IIRC, Vilya is the elder ring, and the heirloom of Ereinion, and actually the most powerful of the Three. And naturally enough belonged to Elrond since the death of G-G.

Cirdan didn't fancy popping off to war, so he gave Gandalf Narya for safe-keeping and in case it helped him defeat Sauron, but I agree that defeating Sauron doesn't mean in the literal sense of using Narya to defeat the One Ring. Not possible surely....?

However, merely the enhancement of Gandalf's "fire" or inner rage, must be counted as a weapon in battle, even if Narya didn't literally fire flaming thunderbolts at orcs etc.



As for the "would Gandalf beat so and so?" question. Thorondor had it right, it clearly states in the text that he saw off the Nine on top of Amon Sul.

Look, if a weatherbeaten old Ranger with a flaming stick can beat them off, then surely a Maiar spirit can kick their asses every time...?!!!

(yes, I am joking. yes, i know they didn't retreat from Strider for the reason given, etc etc)

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

As for the "would Gandalf beat so and so?" question. Thorondor had it right, it clearly states in the text that he saw off the Nine on top of Amon Sul.

Look, if a weatherbeaten old Ranger with a flaming stick can beat them off, then surely a Maiar spirit can kick their asses every time...?!!!

(yes, I am joking. yes, i know they didn't retreat from Strider for the reason given, etc etc)

I'm not sure it's that simple. Gandalf could have driven them off, or startled them, sure (and he did). But if he had the power to destroy them, why didn't he (beyond the obvious reason that "Tolkien didn't want it that way," &c. &c.)?

 

[Aiglos]

I didn't say he had the power to destroy them, just to give them a beating....

They fled from him, when they had no reason to do so.... I think we may just be dealing with a story telling device as you say, rather than a reasoned principle behind who was the stronger etc.

 

[Alatar]

It depends, if you mean on there own then...
Nine men V One Maia.

But as it is with effects of rings...

Nine men with a ring each V one maia and a rings(that is better than theres.)

( not taking into acount steeds)

If it was day gandanlf could make them flee.
If it was night... well the nazgul hate fire so gandalf pine cone trik from the hobbit could come in handy. So now the nazgul are shapless( there clothes got burnt), there only power fear and Gandalf cannot fear them as a) his ring and b) the fact he has lived in Aman.
The Nazgul flee or be killed by Glamdring.

 

[Helm]

There are three separate fires or flames referenced.

I always thought there was one flame, but now I see that there could be two seprate flames. Sorry Entmoot.

...and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur

The 'there' referes to Mordor. The quote then could read: 'In Mordor that was his home, Sauron took up again the ruling Ring.'

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the wills of most Númenoreans.

Why did he naturally have the Ring? This seems to contradict the previous quote. By the way, where did you get this quote from, Inderjit S?

Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor-he wasn't go to war against the Valar himself.

The 'he' I was referring to is Ar-Pharazon, the last king of Numenor, not Sauron.

Sam states that if he put the ring on in Mordor Sauron would notice him.

Yea your right Inderjit S, I was forgeting that.

I thought I read somewhere that there where only 5 Black Riders attacking Gandalf, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Gil-Galad]

There are too many "if"-s in the whole question and the only thing we could do is to speculate ......

I think that most probably Gandalf would not have won.Yes,he was a Maia,but let's not forget that he was no allowed to use his "potential".I believe that in an eventual battle between the Nazguls and Olorin who could use all his power and abilities the Nazguls would have lost ,but the situation was quite different.Gandalf was in Middle-earth and he had to stick to his role.....

 

[Inderjit S]

I got the quote from 'Letters of Tolkien', how does it contradict the previous statement?

 

[Thorondor_]

Would you say that Gandalf didn't use all his existing, available powers when fighting the balrog?

 

[Helm]

I got the quote from 'Letters of Tolkien', how does it contradict the previous statement?

So, Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, than he reterned to Mordor and took up his Ring again in Barad-dur?!?!? I have something, then I go somewhere else and take it up. Either I had it at the begining or I didn't, right. If I had it at the begining, how could I pick it up again? If I didn't have it at the begining, then I could pick it up. Therefore I could have it at the begining, or I did not have it to start out with. Thus the two statments are contradictary.

 

[Maerbenn]

“took up”

Helm: a (good?) explanation for that “took up” is offered here.

 

[Helm]

Interesting, but I do not see that that deffinition must be the case. Also we may have stumbled on mystery?