What Would Morgoth Think of 👁️Sauron's Defeats in the Third Age?

[CirdanLinweilin]

A BIG WHAT IF:
A discussion on the thread about the Red Star in FOTR, The Ring Goes South got me thinking about this
If, again BIG IF, Morgoth was able to witness the time from Smaug's attack on Erebor, to events of The Hobbit up until the the beginning of the Fourth Age, what would be his opinion? What would he think of his former Lieutenant, Sauron? Him getting his butt whooped by Hobbits? The Witch King getting whooped by a woman? Smug getting owned by a Man?

What would the Dark Lord think?

Let our opinions abound!

 

[morgoth145]

I think he'd be rather displeased. Sauron sought to bring order, whereas Morgoth was more of nihilist and lover of chaos. Of course he wouldn't be happy with Elessar ruling justly and peacefully though I imagine he might get some small measure of satisfaction from the fading of the Elves.
It is also quite likely he would develop a hatred for this unfamiliar Hobbit species he seems to hear so much of lately.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Big forces tend to hate being defeated by small peoples.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Thanks for answering morgoth145! I appreciate it!

 

[morgoth145]

Thanks for answering morgoth145! I appreciate it!

It's been a few years since I've been active on here but I managed to remember my password so I should be popping up here and there occasionally.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Ah. I'm new, like real new. I've just finished FOTR the novel, I need to read the next two, and The Hobbit, though I've heard an audio recording of The Hobbit.

For what it's worth, glad you're back!

 

[morgoth145]

Ah. I'm new, like real new. I've just finished FOTR the novel, I need to read the next two, and The Hobbit, though I've heard an audio recording of The Hobbit.

For what it's worth, glad you're back!

Ahh, the first time reading Lord of the Rings, good times. I should do a reread somewhere soon ish, I've been too long without, find something new every time.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

Morgoth technically is able to witness what occurred in Middle-earth from the Void.

Remember that Morgoth's essence and "will" are effused throughout Middle-earth, and that this is a central feature of his Rebellion during the Ainulindalë. Tolkien points this out in one of his Essays( The Wikipedia Article on Morgoth's Ring contains this quote, but not the source - I will track down the source to eventually correct this on the Wikipedia pages):

"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring'."

Like Sauron's Ruling Ring, this did not allow Sauron to perceive directly the Ruling Ring itself, yet there is a marked difference between Sauron's Ruling Ring, and Morgoth's Ring (Ëa, Arda, and Middle-earth). Everything within Ëa contained a part of Morgoth, whereas only Sauron's Ruling Ring (and to a lesser degree the Seven and Nine) contained a part of Sauron. Sauron could "Sense" to a degree the Ruling Ring, which helped him to know it when he laid his eyes upon it, or when one of his Servants was near it, and the Ruling Ring worn.

Both Morgoth being in the Void could see all of Ëa, and perceive slightly that part of himself still within Ëa, dispersed as it were.

And Morgoth's reaction to the Third Age would have been the same reaction he had to everything: Hatred.

Morgoth hated his own existence most of all.

In Christian Theology, this would be due to his willful separation from Eru/God. And this would be made all the more painful for Morgoth, because unlike Humanity, or the Elves, who had never seen God (Eru - but the Elves and Edain HAD at least seen the Valar, who were the direct product of the Mind of Eru Ilúvatar/God) and thus had to rely only upon Faith (of a sort - because, as I mentioned, at least the Eldar and Edain had SEEN the Valar, and thus knew that they were not being lied to regarding the existence of Eru Ilúvatar). This absolute knowledge would have been extraordinarily painful to Melkor Morgoth. And due to his Pride he refused to take responsibility for his rebellion, and thus blamed Eru Ilúvatar for his pain, hating him all the more for it.

He would have raged and cursed Sauron for Sauron's blindness and arrogance in losing to the Númenóreans, and underestimating the capabilities of Humanity.

He would have raged at the salvation of the Faithful at the Drowning of Númenóre, and raged all the more at Sauron for having failed in something that should have been so simple.

He would have raged at the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

He would have raged at Sauron's loss of the Ruling Ring (and delighted in Isildur's betrayal of what is Good in keeping it.

And most of all he would have raged at all of his creations allowing their consuming Pride and Arrogance from keeping them from working together to rescue him from the Void.

He would most especially have hated Aragorn Elessar Telcontar, who was the rebirth of Westernesse and the lineage of every one of Morgoth's greatest enemies of the First Age (Ainur, Elf, and Man - from all three was Aragorn descended).

But this rage and hatred would have been impotent, and Morgoth would have raged and hated himself most of all for this: That he was impotent to do anything, save for waiting for the Evil with which he had infected Arda and Middle-earth to spread more corruption and discord before it finally failed at last before the Dagor Dagorath.

MB

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

That is....absolutely brilliant sir!

I applaud thee for the descriptive answer!

Thanks for informing a newcomer!

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

This is probably so blatantly obvious but...

Morgoth is basically Satan.

And as a Catholic, Tolkien portrayed him with absolute skill.

 

[Matthew Bailey]

Thank you.

While I am new to the forums, I have been studying Tolkien's works since the early-1970s. Although I neglected the religious aspects of them until the 1990s, as I began reading The History of Middle-earth as it was published, and I began to realize how integral Tolkien's own beliefs were to the Sub-Creation of Middle-earth, and the stories within them.

Interestingly, it could be because of Tolkien's views on Sub-Creation that prevented a lot of work on the subject later in his life.

You get into a very murky, and convoluted subject when dealing with the Theological Aspects of Sub-Creation, and Tolkien's relationship to Middle-earth, where things cannot be clearly explained. But from the Point of View of Psychology, it does suggest one possible reason why Tolkien so assiduously avoided some topics within Middle-earth.

In one copy of the Parma Endalemberon (#17, pp.11-12) Tolkien wrote:

The Black Speech was not intentionally modeled on any style, but was meant to be self consistent, very different from Elvish, yet organized and expressive, as would be expected of a device of Sauron before his complete corruption. It was evidently an agglutinative language. [...] I have tried to play fair linguistically, and it is meant to have a meaning not be a mere casual group of nasty noises, though an accurate transcription would even nowadays only be printable in the higher and artistically more advanced form of literature. According to my taste such things are best left to Orcs, ancient and modern.
(Emphasis Mine)

Tolkien purposefully avoided working on the Black Speech, as a result. But it might have gone deeper than he hinted above.

As one example.... In The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 343, Tolkien describes the Black Speech of Mordor as being "Evil" (note the capitalization - for Tolkien when he Capitalizes something, it means it has especial significance), and describes a "gift" he received of an Ale Mug with the Inscription from the Ruling Ring engraved upon it. Tolkien could not simply discard or destroy a gift given to him out of love of his work, as he was exceedingly polite, if nothing else. But he used the mug as an ash tray.

There are other instances recorded in The History of Middle-earth of Tolkien putting aside work on a subject just as it approached real consequences for the characters and world of Middle-earth itself.

Tolkien even has his and his wife's gravestones carved with the names "Beren" and "Luthien" for his and his wife.

In the Catholic Theology and Philosophy of "Sub-Creation," God gives reality... "Life" to the Sub-Creation, even if not within the circles of our world.

This begs the question that Tolkien may have worried that his work on further developing Middle-earth was having real consequences, and creating real suffering for the people inhabiting Middle-earth.

This is just speculation.... So we cannot know for certain. But the speculation is supported by many behavioral and biographical details to suggest that Tolkien's connection to Middle-earth was vastly more emotional that is typical between Artist and Work of Art.

And, yes.... In some of the only surviving film/video we have of Tolkien, he explicitly calls Melkor Morgoth "The Devil" and "Satan" (using both words/terms). Tolkien's sons were known to do this as well (at least Michael and Christopher).

MB