Which are the Two Towers?

CU and MM aer the same tower. To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which.

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Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are positively not the same tower.

Pohuist is absolutely right. Tolkien's view does trump anyone elses. While he did not like the title The Two Towers, he clearly states that most logically the towers referred to are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

Originally posted by amerxtremist

To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which.

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Having a knowledge doesn't equal carefully representing it. The movie bears only a slight resemblance to the book.

I must agree with pohuist and Greenwood the Great... not that I've got anything against the film, but to paraphrase one of the great quotes in English Literature...
'Very nice Mr. Jackson, but it isn't Tolkien...'

Originally posted by Greenwood


Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are positively not the same tower.

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Cirith ungol is that pasaage way that leads to the tower ofthe moon (aka minas morgul)

Originally posted by amerxtremist


Cirith ungol is that pasaage way that leads to the tower ofthe moon (aka minas morgul)

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The passage way was in the mountain, going all the way up.
On the TOP of that passage there was the TOWER of Cirith Ungol (with Silent Watchers, etc.); the BOTTOM of that passage was in Morgul Vale near Minis Morgul. Its all there, in the book...

Trust me the 2 towers are minas morgul and orthanc. It represents the link they had together and it says so on my book.

Quote by pohuist
On the TOP of that passage there was the TOWER of Cirith Ungol (with Silent Watchers, etc.); the BOTTOM of that passage was in Morgul Vale near Minis Morgul. Its all there, in the book...

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pohuist is correct; there are two different towers. The first chapter of Book VI in The Return of the King is titled "The Tower of Cirith Ungol." The two groups of orcs who fight over Frodo's mithril shirt are from the two different towers. Gorbag and his "lads" are from Minas Morgul and Shagrat is the captain of the tower of Cirith Ungol. The volume Sauron Defeated of HoME even has a sketch of the Tower of Cirith Ungol done by Tolkien.

Quote by Beleg Strogbow
Trust me the 2 towers are minas morgul and orthanc. It represents the link they had together and it says so on my book.

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I know it says that in earlier editions. I have a first edition and it says "Here ends the first part of the War of the Ring. The second part is called the Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor." as Tar-Palantir posted on the first page of this thread, but I agree with Tar-Palantir that this was probably written by the publisher, not by Tolkien. There are a couple of reasons to think this. 1) Minas Morgul does not "guard the secret entrance to Mordor". Minas Morgul is in the Morgul Vale outside Mordor and was once Isildur's city of Minas Ithil, sister city to Minas Anor, which was later renamed Minas Tirith. The "secret entrance to Mordor" is the pass of Cirith Ungol and the Tower of Cirith Ungol is at the top of this pass and "guards" the entrance in to Mordor. 2) As I posted earlier, Tolkien himself addressed the issue of which were the two towers referred to in the title. He says in his letters (letter 140 to his publisher, August 17, 1953) he says it "can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B[arad-dur]; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." But in a later letter to his publisher (letter 143, Jan. 22, 1954) he says: "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading."

So Tolkien comes down fairly strongly on the title referring to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. One thing to note is that Tolkien never even mentions Minas Morgul as being one of the possible towers. This is another reason why I feel the statement at the end of FOTR in early editions must have been an error perpetrated by the publisher. This statement is dropped, I believe, in the second edition.

Yes u could be right. I don't know why Tolkiern didn't like the name 2 towers i think it is a great title.

Greenwood, I just read the letter myself, it is rather fascinating that Tolkien believed that it was his publisher, darn people. The Tower of Cirith Ungol and Isengard are 'The Two Towers' that Tolkien 'wanted' to refer to and so did in the LoJRRT. Hush everyone, the great Ulairi and Greenwood have spoken. Hey Greenwood! Check out the Saruman's Ring thread!

theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
(MM) (cu)

Originally posted by amerxtremist
theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
(MM) (cu)

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Incorrect. The tower of the Moon is in fact Minas Morgul also known as Minas Ithil. In addition, there is also a tower of Cirith Ungol, that has no other name, but has a lot of significance, because, as correctly pointed out by Greenwood, its the only tower guarging the secret etrance to Mordor from the West. (MM is, while close, a little bit to the side and Shelob, as we learned, is not invincible). Like I said, its all in the book.

Originally posted by amerxtremist
theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
(MM) (cu)

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Actually, there is:

Tower of the Sun = Minas Anor = Minas Tirith
Tower of the Moon = Minas Ithil = Minas Morgul
Tower of Cirith Ungol = Tower of Cirith Ungol (This one only ever had one name and it is a different place than the other two.)

And Orthanc is the tower of Isengard.

And Barad Dur, the Tower of Dark Lord.

TTT does indeed seem a bad name for a novel, when any of the 5 could be one of the two in the name. (and that's not counting the two towers of the teeth, that are also mentioned there).

Yes, that too.

From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'.

When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".

Book 4 details Frodo and Samwise's passage along the edge of Mordor from the Dead Marshes to the Morannon to their final ascent into the mountains beyond Minas Morgul which ultimately ended with Frodo's capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Thus Book 4 could have easily been entitled "Trapped in the Tower of Cirith Ungol". Looking at it this way makes it very easy for me to understand how the author decided upon which two towers to focus.

As an aside, I would like to commend every single participant in this thread on a very intriguing, entertaining and civil discussion and debate. Not once have I seen anyone degrading or attacking anyone else. Even when people have disagreed, they have presented their case and debated their points with dignity and respect.

CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD!!!

I myself always thought that it was Barad Dur and Orthanc.

Originally posted by Grond
From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'.

When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".

Book 4 details Frodo and Samwise's passage along the edge of Mordor from the Dead Marshes to the Morannon to their final ascent into the mountains beyond Minas Morgul which ultimately ended with Frodo's capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Thus Book 4 could have easily been entitled "Trapped in the Tower of Cirith Ungol". Looking at it this way makes it very easy for me to understand how the author decided upon which two towers to focus.

As an aside, I would like to commend every single participant in this thread on a very intriguing, entertaining and civil discussion and debate. Not once have I seen anyone degrading or attacking anyone else. Even when people have disagreed, they have presented their case and debated their points with dignity and respect.

CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD!!!

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Thankyou Grond. Very well spoken I might add.

I'm pretty sure that the two towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. I've read about that somewhere, but I can't remember where.

It has been said by Tolkien himself in one of his letters that the Two Towers are Cirith Ungol and Orthanc, there are no other options.