Which are the Two Towers?

Cian · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist: As for the rest, sorry, quotes from anyone about Tolkien's intentions and even Tolkien's pictures convince me far less than Tolkien's words. I will stick to my position. And, logically speaking, the TT is mostly about Orthanc and CU, don't you agree?

Words or pictures: you're certainly free to chose your precedence of course. One could also argue that JRRTs thoughts in his letters here represent his musings, but while a book cover would take some doing, and be rather 'public' to boot, he did some more thinking on it ~ not that I'm arguing that but, in any case, as "chronology" might help decide for some, I looked into it.

As to your question, it depends on how one looks at the significance of the various towers with respect to what the title itself might "represent" (ie what is desired). Tolkien himself seemed to vacillate as we see ... and even the letter you cite follows with: "But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." ~ the early sketch seems to pick up there interestingly.

~ but heck, afterall, a picture might be worth a thousand somethings

aragil · Jul 30, 2002

Sewing more cornfusion

It is difficult to say exactly which two towers the book refers to, and this is compounded by the fact that the action was already written by the time Tolkien realized he needed 3 book titles. I could just as easily say that the narrative of the book is about Frodo's attempt to get into Mordor, with the action in Rohan paralleling the way in which Sauron's eye was drawn away from guarding his own realm. One of the pivotal moments of the narrative would then be the point where Sam and Frodo reach the Black Gate and find it closed beyond all hope. Then the two towers might refer to the twin battlements on the Morannon.

Maeglin · Jul 31, 2002

I when I first read it I thought thats what The Tow Towers were referring to, then I thought it was the tower of (was it moon?) where Faramir took Frodo and Sam and Cirith Ungol, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it must be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

pohuist · Jul 31, 2002

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
I when I first read it I thought thats what The Tow Towers were referring to, then I thought it was the tower of (was it moon?) where Faramir took Frodo and Sam and Cirith Ungol, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it must be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

Faramir did not take Frodo and Sam any tower. He took them to the secret refuge of Gondor warriors in Ithilien (hidden cave under the waterfall). Afterwards, they, on their own, (with Smeagol) went to Morgul Vale. The Tower of the Moon aka Minas Ithil aka Minas Morgul is where the chief Nasgul dwells. Faramir never went there.

Aragil, I think the consensus is that the TT are not the Towers of the Teeth.

Grond and Cian thank you for your comments. Seems the consensus is, that one of the towers is Orthanc. The other is either Barad-dur, or MM, or CU. You managed to convince me that even JRRT wasn't completely sure. So, Grond, I have to contend that the issue wasn't a dead horse, as I asserted earlier, after all. You should thank Cian, though. Needless to say, that I am standing by my opinion (which I believe -- sorry, Cian, to be the opinion of the majority on this thread) that the second of the two is, indeed, CU.

aragil · Jul 31, 2002

pohuist- I agree that the consensus is probably CU and Orthanc. My point was that 'The Two Towers' is an artificial label. The narrative had been written out between 6-11 years before the name 'Two Towers' had ever been contemplated. Since the narrative wasn't written explicitly to relate to 'two towers', it shouldn't surprise us that it is hard apply that label to the narrative. Additionally, it is clear that when Tolkien came up with the title, he had no clear idea which two towers the title referred to. As such, I think it is up to each individual reader to decide for themselves what the title refers to. I think that this is a personal decision (there being no 'higher authority' for comparison), and that the 'consensus' opinion should not keep people from having their own views. Truthfully, the 'Morannon as Two Towers' theory is not what I believe, but rather a belief which I think is equally valid to any other theory relating the name to the narrative.

Grond · Jul 31, 2002

Originally posted by pohuist
...So, Grond, I have to contend that the issue wasn't a dead horse, as I asserted earlier, after all. You should thank Cian, though. Needless to say, that I am standing by my opinion (which I believe -- sorry, Cian, to be the opinion of the majority on this thread) that the second of the two is, indeed, CU.

Thank you Cian!! (exactly for what I'm not sure.) I still contend that this issue is much as Aragil describes it. While I feel comfortable that the Two Towers equate to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, I wouldn't argue with anyone who chose any of the other towers spoken of in Books 3 and 4. The only sure thing in this thread is that nothing is sure.

Walter · Jul 31, 2002

Q: So the two towers are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol?
A: Definitive maybe...

Cian · Jul 31, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
Thank you Cian!! (exactly for what I'm not sure.) ...

LoL

And no problem Pohuist; heck I may be swayed by my part time profession anyway (freelance Illustrator). :chants: Minas Morgul, Minas Morgul ...

pohuist · Jul 31, 2002

Aragil, I agree that the label is artificial, hey JRRT himself wasn't happy about it. (WOW I finally agreed with Aragil on something -- what this world is coming to?! (still amazed at himself)

Grond, you should thank Cian for bringing up the picture. Before that even your Battling Ram (or was it hammer from hell ) couldn't beat me into submission.

Cian, you're not only illustrator, seems you are a singer too (otherwise what all this chanting is about?)

LOL everybody

Eol · Aug 5, 2002

Towers

There are a lot of towers mentioned in The Two Towers, but I never realized there was a controversy over which ones were referred to. The two towers of importance are Orthanc and Barad-dur. The big discovery of importance was the communications link between these two towers. The Palantir of Orthanc was a vital source of information and control for Sauron, and the loss of it caused a lot of doubt on his part (and was further exacerbated by Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through it and showing him Narsil re-forged).

As for the other towers, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are mentioned, but in this book no major events take place there. Same with the Towers of the Teeth (Cirith Gorgor) and Cirith Ungol (the latter action takes place at the beginning of ROTK). I agree with Tolkien that it isn't the greatest title, but I am pretty sure these two towers are the most important to the second book.

Eol

Grond · Aug 5, 2002

Re: Towers

Originally posted by Eol
There are a lot of towers mentioned in The Two Towers, but I never realized there was a controversy over which ones were referred to. The two towers of importance are Orthanc and Barad-dur. The big discovery of importance was the communications link between these two towers. The Palantir of Orthanc was a vital source of information and control for Sauron, and the loss of it caused a lot of doubt on his part (and was further exacerbated by Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through it and showing him Narsil re-forged).

As for the other towers, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are mentioned, but in this book no major events take place there. Same with the Towers of the Teeth (Cirith Gorgor) and Cirith Ungol (the latter action takes place at the beginning of ROTK). I agree with Tolkien that it isn't the greatest title, but I am pretty sure these two towers are the most important to the second book.

Eol

Book Three was largely about the events leading to the downfall of Orthanc. Book Four was largely about Frodo's trip through and subsequent capture in Cirith Ungol. Ungol = spider. That is what most of Book Four was about. I don't agree with your point.

Eol · Aug 5, 2002

Cirith Ungol

Weren't the actual events in the Cirith Ungol dealt with in ROTK? The events with Shelob were in the passages leading up to the tower. The events of Frodo's rescue from the orcs by Sam was IN Cirith Ungol. I would check for sure but my book is currently on loan.

Eol

Lantarion · Aug 5, 2002

Hmm, as I recall (but remember I very well could be wrong) it was in TT that Frodo and Sam arrived in Ithilien, stayed there for a day, arrived at Cirith Ungol, and got Frodo poisoned. And I seem to remember that the TT ends with Sam being locked in right behind the Orcs.. Hoom hum..
Welcome to the forum, Eöl!

Eol · Aug 5, 2002

Locked out

Exactly, he is locked out of the tower actually. Then ROTK starts with Sam deciding what to do, and then trying to find a way into the tower to rescue Frodo. Nothing really happens IN the tower in TTT. And that is my point, the important business in the book is the Orthanc-Barad-dur action and connection. And the Palantir being the key to the next major step in the action.

Eol

P.S. Thanks for the welcome.

pohuist · Aug 5, 2002

Can't agree with that. TTT ends with Frodo being taken into to the tower [of CU] -- I think it is one of the most important moments in the books. If he was not resqued but taken to Sauron, he would have revealed everything and Sam and the Ring would undoubtely been captured. But don't take my word for that, ask JRRT (Look for quotes/descriptions of drawings in earlier posts on this thread.

Grond · Aug 5, 2002

Once again I will simply post what the author says on the matter. I don't think anyone can claim to be more authoritative than J. R. R. Tolkien himself.

from Letter #140 to Rayner Unwin 17 August 1953
...The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous – it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol.1 On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story : the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice.

from Letter #143 to Raynor Unwin 22 January 1954... I post the letter in its entirety,
I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume.

Here follows a footnote to Letter #140 from The Letters. I'm not sure whether the commentary is from Humphrey Carpenter (Editor) or Christopher Tolkien (Contributor).

Footnote to Letter #140,
[140] 1. In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see no. 151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (The Fellowship of the Ring p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.

Based on all these conflicting thoughts from the works own author, I stand by my opinion that The Two Towers are any of the Towers that the reader decides they should be. They are not any two specific towers as outlined by the author himself.

For me, the Towers of Orthanc and Cirith Ungol work.

Eol, welcome to the forum and I hope this makes this issue more clear for you.

Walter · Aug 5, 2002

What always strikes me funny is, how we keep repeating the same arguments or facts over and over again, which somehow reminds me of a tibetanian prayer wheel. For example the passages in Letter 140 and 143 have been quoted 4 times already...

Maybe we should just start replying RTFT (Read That F..unny Thread) instead?

Grond · Aug 5, 2002

Walter,

It appeared that they needed to be quoted again since it was apparent that there was still some certain uncertainty on the issue.

Muffinly · Aug 5, 2002

Barad-dur and orthanc

Grond · Aug 6, 2002

Originally posted by Muffinly
Barad-dur and orthanc

LOL..... Welcome to the Forum!!!

Try reading some of the posts before coming to a conclusion.

Which are the Two Towers?

What is the combonation of "The Two Towers"

Barad Dur and Minas Tirith

Barad Dur and Orthanc

Orthanc and Minas Tirith

Orthanc and Minas Morgul

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