Which are the Two Towers?

[Greymantle]

Originally posted by Silnarion
Thats my perspective...and there is probably some JRRT interview somewhere that marks me wrong.

Lol, that's the story of my life...

 

[Telchar]

The towe of Cirith Ungol is not in Minas Morgul.. The Tower of Cirith Ungol is a watchtower, and it is here Frodo is brought after he's captured.. IIRC Frodo and Sam where nver in Minas Morgul..

 

[Tulkas]

While reading a synopsis or something (doesn't matter) I found that Tolkien said they were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

 

[Telchar]

I've read that somewhere too, but I can't remember where..
Doesn't Christopher Tolkien say something about it in HoME?

 

[Scooter]

I'd be surprised to learn that JRRT intended CU as the second tower. Not that I can prove otherwise but the tower of Cirith Ungol plays a relatively small role in TT. Minas Morgul is much more central to the sense of dread that pervades Frodo's journey into Mordor.

I kinda like Grond's take on Barad-dur and Orthanc representing the struggle between Sauron and Saruman -- that's grown on me. A reading strictly from that perspective broadens the action and adds to the context of the "simpler" plot elements. Consider then that Wormtongue is not just a servant of Saruman but is a tool of Sauron's as well, set to hinder the company and the plans of all those who might oppose Sauron.

It would be interesting to reread (or just reconsider) LOTR from different perspectives. Choose a character (especially minor ones) and consider their motivation, how they might percieve actions. Can add a lot to the story I think.

Or how about:
LOTR as a study of Class Struggle
from a Buddhist perspective
from a feminist perspective
compare/contrast with US Revolution

Hmmm... off topic, no? but still interesting!

 

[Tulkas]

Oops, my mistake. I just found where I read that and it was a prologue to Fellowship. But the 2 towers are ORTHANC and MINAS MORGUL. Sorry about that.

 

[Silnarion]

I like what Scooter mentioned...Orthanc and Barad Dur. Ya throw my idea out, this sounds better.

Sounds like the best TT scenario.

Why wasnt JRRT thoroughly interviewed about these kinds of things? So many questions left answered.

 

[gil-estel]

i thought that it was minas morgul and orthanc as thats what it says at very end of fotr

 

[Silnarion]

Yes but Minas Morgul is really just a "pawn" outpost of the real string puller, Barad Dur...if you want to think of it that way.

 

[gil-estel]

True but you never really get the sense of evil that pervades from Morgul when Barad Dur is mentionned-the closest anyone gets is miles away. it might work better but they are never really in conflict orthanc and \barad dur-on eis always supreme whereas Morgul is about the sdame as Orthanc_saruman could probably hold his own against the Morgul king but not Sauron

 

[Gothmog]

My original view was that the two towers were Orthanc and Barad-dur. However, after reading everything posted on here I have changed my mind (what little there is of it).

Whether Saruman accepted it or not he was just a pawn of Sauron so this would make both Minas Morgul and Orthanc the Two main outposts of Mordor. So then, since all of the story in the Two Towers takes place between or around these, I have come to accept that it is Orthanc and Minas Morgul and the two leutenants of Sauron that are meant in the title.

 

[gil-estel]

Still think that your idea had merits tho-i liked it but just read Breaking of fellowship and thats what it says at the end of that. but you're right saruman was just a puppet

 

[Gothmog]

Thanks for reminding me about the end of The Breaking of the Fellowship, I just looked it up. I had forgoten about that part.

 

[Cian]

Why wasnt JRRT thoroughly interviewed about these kinds of things?

Tolkien did comment in two seperate letters about the issue however, the contents of which do not bring much "resolution"

Marketed versions of The Two Towers show Tolkiens own cover illustrations (Allen & Unwin asked the Prof to produce dust jacket designs) The towers featured (after revision) are Minas Morgul and Orthanc ~ agreeing with the mentioned blurb (though I don't know who wrote the blurb) found in, at least my, FotR editions ~ the blurb published during Tolkiens lifetime at any rate. Cheers.

 

[ReadWryt]

(Taken from a letter to Rayner Unwin from August 17th, 1953)

"The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think; and fits well with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is The Breaking of the Fellowship. The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or to Isengard and Cirth Ungol. On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story; the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance."

From letter #140 of the Y2K edition of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

As you can see, Tolkien really didn't have a concrete grasp on which pair it was himself apparently...

 

[Scooter]

It appears there's quite a few reasons to believe that JRRT's intention was Morgul and Orthanc but it seems profitable to discuss the other alternatives as well. We all read the books with our own biases and opinions (even Tolkien! if we want to take the modern criticism approach) and it's illuminating to see the story from other readers viewpoints.

BTW I was quoting Grond on the Barad-dur/Orthanc position. Let's give credit where it's due. I still like that interpretation best I think!

Thanks ReadWryt for a great quote! It seems that JRRT knew a great metaphor when he saw it. The "ambiguity" he refers to has done its job, allowing the meaning of the Two Towers to be as broad as the reader's imagination, thereby making it mean everything at once.

I say, therefor, that the 2 towers are Merry and Pippin!

 

[Tar-Steve]

Originally posted by Cian

Marketed versions of The Two Towers show Tolkiens own cover illustrations (Allen & Unwin asked the Prof to produce dust jacket designs) The towers featured (after revision) are Minas Morgul and Orthanc ~ agreeing with the mentioned blurb (though I don't know who wrote the blurb) found in, at least my, FotR editions ~ the blurb published during Tolkiens lifetime at any rate. Cheers.

Does anyone know if there's a fan website with JRRT's artwork on it? My TT has Fangorn Forest on the cover by JRRT. (FoTR has his "Hobbiton" & RotK has his "Barad-dur") I'd love to see his other artwork.

 

[Cian]

Since we now have one letter posted, here's another:

"I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented seperately as a volume."
JRRT Jan 1954

For web Tolkien artwork, a good place is "Rolozo Tolkien" ~ has Tolkiens own.

Interestingly, the forest pic (with characters) used for TTT, was once Beleg finding Gwindor in the forest of Taur-nu-fuin.

 

[Tulkas]

Nevertheless, even if Barad-dur would be the better, Tolkien says himself Minas Morgul.

BTW
I do think myself that Barad-dur would fit in as the 2nd tower better than Minas Morgul.

 

[Grond]

You know Tolkien could have solved all this for us simply by naming the book "The Four Towers" or better even, "The Five Towers". I guess this thread has played out that even Tolkien wasn't committed to one set of towers and the reader gets to choose which pair best fits with his own interpretation of the text. I reiterate that I really like Barad-dur and Orthanc because of the basic struggle occurring between Saruman and Sauron at the time. I'm drawn back to the part of the book where Pippin peers into the Palantari and is confronted by Sauron who advises Pippin to tell Saruman that this morsel is not for him and that he will be sending someone for him...... but I could be wrong.