Who controls the Watcher in the Water?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lantarion
...Another theory, though, is that the Ring was 'commanding' it. As we have seen, the Ring does seem to have a sort of 'will' of its own. At least it can be said that it has a strange knack for attracting evil/greedy/weak-minded/proud things or people to it (Cf. Nazgûl, Boromir). So perhaps the rock thrown by Boromir (it was Boromir, wasn't it?) was of no importance, but the Ring perhaps found a chance, so to speak, to attract the creature towards the Company so that it could reallocate itself (ie. get lost) again. Perhaps an extra option could be added to the poll?

Their are no quotes in the Letters, I had already checked before I posted... nor in any of the texts of HoMe that I could find. (but I could have missed something)

I do not agree with you Lantarion that the Ring controlled the Watcher but do concede that the Ring seemed to possess a "magical attraction" for evil in some cases. I say some cases, because it certainly didn't seem to attract the Nazgul while Frodo was in the Shire. He stood not but a few feet from Khamal as the Nazgul talked to Gaffer Gamgee and the Ring seemed to be ineffectual; however, Caradhras, The Watcher in the Water and the Orc Chieftan in Moria all seem to be "drawn" to the Ring. Either that, or poor Frodo just had some really bad luck!

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Grond
Your theory holds no water since both Shelob and the Balrog would fall into this category. It is clear from the texts that the Balrog was not subservient to Sauron nor was Shelob.

I don't find it clear that the Balrog was not a servant of Sauron. It may had been left there to hold the dwarves outside Moria and thus hinder any endeavor to pass through it. Also, Shelob's existence was known to Sauron and he left it at Cirith Ungol as a guardian. I don't say that they were completely under Sauron's sevice, but they definitely served his plan and he let them be for this reason. But eventually whatever they did was in favor of Sauron.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I don't find it clear that the Balrog was not a servant of Sauron. It may had been left there to hold the dwarves outside Moria and thus hinder any endeavor to pass through it. Also, Shelob's existence was known to Sauron and he left it at Cirith Ungol as a guardian. I don't say that they were completely under Sauron's sevice, but they definitely served his plan and he let them be for this reason. But eventually whatever they did was in favor of Sauron.

Not to be a spoil sport, but if I had a powerful Balrog and a powerful descendant of Ungoliant under my control.... they would have been leading my armies.

Also, the Balrogs always were in the train of Melkor and never were shown to serve Sauron at all in any of their actions during the First Age. I imagine they were jealous of Sauron's position and would likely not serve him. I will research this further and report back.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

To add to Grond's last thought... after all, the Balrogs were Maia just like Sauron. It would be very hard for them to bow their necks to one who had at one time been at their same level.

It is my opinion that the Watcher was not controlled directly by anyone but himself. I can easily see the Ring attracting his attention to Frodo, but it is my personal opinion that he was alerted of the Fellowship's presence by Boromir's rock. But, you have all already covered this. One interesting question, however, is why since there was more than one arm would the creature grab only Frodo? Couldn't he have grabbed more than one person?

Perhaps the Watcher had heard of the Ring, and perhaps he was a Maia. Who knows what whispers and rumors floated around in the deep, dark places of the world. Perhaps the Watcher was alerted or could feel the Ring's presence and was seeking to get it for himself? Perhaps he wished to contest Sauron as he was envious of Sauron's power? After all, within the forces of evil exists spite, division, treachery, and greed. This, of course, is simply conjecture, but it is an idea that came to me as I read this thread.

 

[Galadhwen]

I'm sorry Nenya but I just can't see Kraken wielding the One and ruling Middle Earth! Could you imagine it- the many tentacles of Sirannon
As for not going for anyone else perhaps he was just intent on getting Frodo for whatever reason or maybe the others were standing further away from the lake.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

And neither can I picture that, but such is the greatness of imagination. We will never know for sure what the beast's real intent was, but I just thought I'd throw that thought out there for the hec of it - to give everyone some food for thought.

 

[Galadhwen]

Yea, pity that, and what I still want to know is where the heck did it come from! I started a thread up for this ages back and I don't think we came up with an answer- any thoughts?

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yea, pity that, and what I still want to know is where the heck did it come from!

I have no idea! It just came... and it still intruiges me. What if????? Another answer could be that it was almost 1:00 in the morning....

 

[Mr. Istari]

I see that this is a really old thread but I felt I should throw my own two cents in...

Well about who 'controls' the watcher in the water...
I believe he controls himself. I have yet to read anything that proves anything otherwise... Then again there is a lot that I haven't read.

As for why it went for frodo...
I think it went for Frodo because of the ring but I dont think the ring or Sauron had any control over it. It seems to me that the watcher could 'sense' the power of the ring and mayhaps have been attracted by it's evilness and therefore would have gone for the one who had it in their possession. (and no I can't explain why the Nazgul didn't notice in the shire)

As for where the kracken came from...
I think that the most reasonable explanation would be that it had come up from the depths of Moria. If I remember correctly it is even said that Sauron did not know of all of the things in the depths of the mountains so it is possible that it had made it's way up to the surface (possibly to feed?) and settled in the waters right outside the West Gate of Moria without the aid or Sauron or Morgoth and therefore may have even been out of their knowledge...

Like I said I am very under-read so if anyone more knowledgable want's to prove me wrong that's fine with me. This is all just speculation and hypothesis.

- Mr. Istari

 

[Starbrow]

I would say that the Watcher is in control of himself. After reading the other posts, I would also say that the Ring may be exerting an influence on it. Maybe be encouraging evil or trying to leave Frodo, as it has "left" other bearers, such as Gollum.

 

[Meselyn]

I always got the feeling that it did whatever it wanted. Like it was placed there to stand guard.

 

[Mr. Istari]

New theory:
I control the watcher in the water!

 

[Noldor_returned]

I vote that as the most likely

Well I don't think Saruman was aware of its prescence, as I can't remember Gandalf knowing of it either. And the Balrog, IMO, seemed to just sit around in the Pits and only come out when it was disturbed, and therefore the Watcher was fairly insignificant to the Balrog. I would like to think Sauron commanded it and it was another of his nets, yet I think the Watcher is independant and it was just misfortune that its discovery coincided with the path taken by the Fellowship.

 

[Neumy]

I voted "the Watcher itself".

By the time the Fellowship passed through that area, I believe the Watcher was in full control of its own actions and was not influenced by any other. However, I do believe he was "placed" there by another (probably Saruman / maybe the Balrog).

- Sauron: I can't believe that Sauron had directed any thought towards Moria. He was focused on building his army, his power, and (of course) finding the ring; why would he care who entered (or left) Moria?

- Balrog: I don't know the true purpose the Balrog was destined to play beyond the fight with Gandalf. It is my understanding that Sauron or Saruman could not control the Balrog without the power of the ring. I also believe that the Balrog did not have any desires of its own. It might have placed the Watcher there to help encourage others not to enter Moria; but why would he care? The only reason I can think of is to ensure that any who entered from the east gate do not escape out the west gate.

- Saruman: Isengard was a perfect central location to control the world. If anyone tried to get from one place to another, you had to pass near Isengard. When the Fellowship travelled south, they had two options on how to pass by Isengard: 1) over (or under) the mountain or 2) west to the coast and around the White Mountains. West was too long and Saruman had his spies and control of the Mountains - I can see him placing the Watcher at the entrance of Moria to ensure that the way "under" was closed to all who tried. This way, wherever the Fellowship (or any other traveller went), Saruman was in control.

 

[Mr. Istari]

Hello world!

I'm kinda tired so I decided to argue with myself and thought of something.
What If...

What If Saruman had placed the watcher there on purpose?
I think it might be possible and would have been a smartish move on his part. There were only the three ways for the fellowship to go: over the mountains, under the mountains, or around the mountains. Logically the best route for the fellowship to take would be under the mountains because that was the place of the least influence of Saruman. Therefore placing the watcher there would be Sarumans (weak) attempt at stopping the fellowship from travelling through. This would also explain why the watcher went for Frodo because it would have been instructed to possibly... Then again it wouldnt really know the difference between most of the party members let alone the difference between each of the hobbitses. (man I shoulda thought that one a little more through)

Oh well... It's a possibility and you can't prove it wrong ha!
(well I don't think you can anyways)

 

[Gothmog]

I think that it is very unlikely for the 'Watcher' to have been placed there by Saruman and therefore would rule out the possibility that he had any control over it. In FotR: Chapter 5. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, Gandalf is reading from the record of the Dwarves attempt to 're-colonise' the Dwarrowdelf. This record shows not only that the lake was formed by the damming of the Sirannon at the time of this earlier entry to Moria. Part of what Gandalf read is as follows:

Then there are four lines smeared so that I can only read went 5 days ago. The last lines run the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out. The end comes, and then drums, drums in the deep. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: they are coming. There is nothing more.' Gandalf paused and stood in silent thought.

Since I doubt that Saruman would have been interested in the Dwarves trying to regain Moria at that time the damming of the gate-stream and the apperance of the 'Watcher' would be down to either the Balrog or the Orcs blocking the escape of their enemies.

It is possible, or even likely that either the Orcs or the Balrog somehow drove the creature out of its normal home and into the growing pool to stop the Dwarves from escaping by boat. I do not believe, however, that there is any more control than that. I would say that the Watcher controled it self.

 

[Leveller]

I always though the watcher controlled itself. Maybe it was created by morgoth long ago, a corrupted Maia. Or it was a Maia who served neither the Valar or Morgoth, like Ungoliant. Or it was one of Ungoliants offsprings. Etc etc...
As for the reason it took Frodo first, I belive it was because it was somehow "drawn" to the ring, it could sense the rings' power and wanted it for itself. Or it just attacked whoever stood closest to the lake.

 

[Bucky]

Theories are nice, but theories are just that:

Somebody's OWN IDEAS.

The FACTS ARE THIS:

Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

The Watcher in the Water is one of these......

UNLESS, The Watcher is Indeed The Balrog in it's wet form, which I seriously doubt, but it could be, because Gandalf describes it after it's fall from the Bridge at Kazad-dum as 'A thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake'.

That, however, hardly sounds like the Watcher, which Gandalf saw.
But, we must consider that Gandalf only felt & couldn't really see much in the deep recesses of the earth while fighting with the Balrog until it burst forth in flame anew upon exiting from the endless stair.

Just a thought......

 

[Noldor_returned]

Good thoughts but the Watcher was not slimy if i recall correctly...I have debated the slime topic elsewhere...I'll see what we had about it and bring it over...

 

[greypilgrim]

I think Bucky nailed it. Morgoth made it, it serves him alone. It's one of those evil creatures that roamed around in the ancient times of Morgoth's reign. Was does Tolkien say about it?