Who controls the Watcher in the Water?

greypilgrim, while I agree with you that Bucky did 'Nail it'. I would not go so far as to say that "Morgoth made it, it serves him alone." In fact I would say that even Morgoth did not know about it.

In my view, a better expanation would be that 'The Watcher' was a creature that came about due to the 'Clash of Music' during Melkor's rebelion in the Ainulindale. Things would have come out of that Battle that not even Eru himself foresaw. Melkor would not have taken any notice of them as he was too caught up in what he was doing that any side effects would have been ignored.

Just my (not at all) humble opinion

Hmm, I was only remembering the scary forest near Beleriand from the Sil, and it being near mountains and all, I figured Morgoth put his minions in there to waylay elves and dirty humans in that region, the Watcher being just one of the ones he made under that mountain he shacked up in...what was it called? Utumno? Anyways it seemed to like water or need it, that much is plain.

Bucky's explanation is the one I always believed in.

I dont think it says in any of the books who is in charge of the watcher in the water, so i feel implyed to say that no-one "controls" the watcher in the water. Regardless of who it "serves" (for want of a better word), it makes its own decisions. A better phraised question would probibly get a better answer, lol.

By the way Leveller, ungoliant was a spider, and so are her offspring. ex. Shelob

I voted "the Watcher itself", because I've always thought that it was, like the Ents, to much a part of nature to be control by an outside source.

On the other hand, Sauron did have that "cruelty, malice, and will to dominate all life."



Perhaps he did have at least some control of the Watcher. Perhaps his orders were to "eat whatever shows up", or perhaps, back to my original vote, perhaps the Watcher, like bears, just get really pissed off when you wake them up from naps!

Ithrynluin said:

I got this idea from another forum.
Who controls the mysterious Watcher in the water?
Discuss.

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I always thought Sauron did. On the other hand, "there are things deeper darker and fouler and who've been around longer" even than the creatures Sauron controls.

Barley

I think The Watcher did his own thing; but Frodo’s presence and location were magnified due to the Ring.

from Bucky
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

The Watcher in the Water is one of these......

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I agree; but only to a point; simply because the quoted reference has always bothered me; and I’m still not entirely convinced that Tolkien did not overlook this. This isn’t quite the same as the Bombadil situation; where Tom alludes to his age by way of known events in ancient history; this actually says “older than Sauron”. I think he made a boo-boo.

from Gothmog
while I agree with you that Bucky did 'Nail it'. I would not go so far as to say that "Morgoth made it, it serves him alone." In fact I would say that even Morgoth did not know about it.

In my view, a better expanation would be that 'The Watcher' was a creature that came about due to the 'Clash of Music' during Melkor's rebelion in the Ainulindale. Things would have come out of that Battle that not even Eru himself foresaw.

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Even so, that would not make something “older” than the Ainur. Older than Arda and Eä; possibly; but the only being older than the Ainur that I know of is Eru; unless we completely disregard the Ainulindalë.

PS - Since Gandalf did not know what The Watcher was, it is possible that Tolkien, as writer knows that nothing other than Eru is older than the Ainur; but Gandalf "within the story" does not.

Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time. Ainur can have children, and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?

Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time.

That's what I always thought, like Tom Bombadil saying he was "there before the Dark Lord (Morgoth I take it) came in from the outside" - It's a time thing according to time in Arda, not outside Arda.

Ainur can have children,

That's highly debateable. The only one who did in Tolkien's later mythology, Melian did so by taking on the form of an Elf, not as a Maia. Sauron was no Elf, Man or Dwarf.
Fionwe, son of Manwe, became Eonwe, 'Herald of Manwe'.



and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?

I don't recall anything saying the Ainur weren't 'poofed' into being at the same time either....

But the point here is that the Ainur were all 'poofed' by the time Eru gathered them together & told them about his plan, i.e., The Music.

Also please note, from 'Of the Rings of Power & the 3rd Age:

'Of old there was Sauron the Maia... In the BEGINNING of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegience....'

However, if you read the very end of Ainulindale, it appears that Melkor probably came down to Arda originally alone. Either way, Sauron was in Arda soon after the Valar were.....

by YayGollum
Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time. Ainur can have children, and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?

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Well, The Watcher must have been one of the Ainur; if the very first words of The Silmarillion are to be taken seriously:

“There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made."

There is still no evidence that some Ainur are older than others.

Well, The Watcher must have been one of the Ainur; if the very first words of The Silmarillion are to be taken seriously:

“There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made."


I think that's not correct in terms of time on ARDA....

That is based on when the 'Ainur' (afterwards known as Valar & Maiar) entered Arda....

That's when time began.

The simplest explanation is that the Watcher was just there & created/happened/whatever before Sauron entered into Arda, like when Melkor was fighting the Valar & all those convulsions: mountains & valleys being raised & broken, etc....

As for The Watcher being an Ainu, can't be because we must assume it doesn't talk & Tolkien says in 'Myths Transformed' that talking in creatures is a sign of Ainur spirits - I know what about Balrogs?

Well, fun imagining different scenarios anyway. Along with Bombadil and Ungoliant; we can only guess.

Yeah, you know I was looking for a long time now for where Tolkien mentions the 'Ancient Evils' created way 'back in the day'.....

I guess around the time of Melkor versus the Valar - I can never find it though.

Other folks have mentioned it too.
I even went to the Encyclopedia of Arda & searched, but nothing came up.

The only other thing I came up with is this:

The Silm, chapter 1:

(After Melkor has fled in fear of Tulkas)

'Then Tulkas slept, being weary & content & Melkor deemed his hour had come. And he passed therefore over the Walls of Night with his host (note that: more on this later).......'

'Now Melkor began the delving & building of a great fortress.... named Utumno.....though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence..... and beasts became monsters of horn & ivory & dyed the earth with blood.'

Interesting to note about the twisting of these creatures due to the hatred of Melkor. Could be The Watcher came about then & Gandalf simply means "older than he" (Sauron) in respect to Sauron coming to Middle-earth. Remember that Sauron belonged to the People of Aule & was corrupted to Melkor's service later - who knows. Probably Tolkien didn't & would've wrote a paper on it.

The other point, which I never noticed until typing is, as I stated in my previous post, is that it appears Melkor came first alone.....

Then was drove out by Tulkas & as it states here, returned with a host of corrupted Ainur.

This makes sense.....

Melkor tries to defeat the Valar alone, Tulkas drives him out & he sees the need for help, so he returns with reinforcements. Hence, there are no other 'Vala level' Ainur left to him as they've all gone to Arda already.....

So, he takes as many 'Maiar level' Ainur as he can corrupt with him.

from Bucky
Could be The Watcher came about then & Gandalf simply means "older than he" (Sauron) in respect to Sauron coming to Middle-earth.

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Possibly. Also, Gandalf wasn’t specifically referring to The Watcher when he made that statement:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

He only refers to Orcs when speaking of The Watcher; so it may have just been another creature bred by Morgoth; maybe one of his early attempts at breeding a Dragon that didn’t quite make it .

Possibly. Also, Gandalf wasn’t specifically referring to The Watcher when he made that statement:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

He only refers to Orcs when speaking of The Watcher; so it may have just been another creature bred by Morgoth; maybe one of his early attempts at breeding a Dragon that didn’t quite make it .

Well, now, of course the thing with the arms is the Watcher - you know that!

What would a dragon wannabe be doing thousands of miles from Angband if it didn't have any legs?

'The Watcher in the Water' is simply a name that the Dwarves living there for 5 years had time to give to the thing with the arms that attacked the Fellowship.....

When reading the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul, the Fellowship then put 2 & 2 together & realized that 'The Watcher in the Water' was the name given to the thing which had attacked them at the Hollin Gate - of course.

They could've just as easily called it 'The Thing in the Dammed Up Sirranon River That Has A Lot of Arms and Attacks People Who Go Near the Water", but that really doesn't roll off the tongue.

from Bucky
What would a dragon wannabe be doing thousands of miles from Angband if it didn't have any legs?

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Maybe Morgoth was embarrassed by his debacle; tossed the thing in a big sack; and had some of his henchman take it far away out of his sight .

This might have been an evil bred by itself. In the Bible, God did not make Satan in the seven days, but he made Adam and Eve. However, Satan appears fairly quickly and I can't remember where from.

Also, there may have been some kind of Beowulfian and also therefore Biblical influence here, because in that it says that Grendel and Grendel's mother were descendants of Cain along with werewolves and all evil beings, the guy who killed his brother and caused all the sin to emerge (or something like that). Perhaps Tolkien wished to be mysterious and was going along the lines that Ungoliant and the Watcher are evils born by evil, as happened with Grendel and his mother from Cain.

by Noldor_returned
This might have been an evil bred by itself. In the Bible, God did not make Satan in the seven days, but he made Adam and Eve. However, Satan appears fairly quickly and I can't remember where from.

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Satan parallels Morgoth; and ancient angelic being that was corrupted by his own pride; and was around long before Adam and Eve.
But the possibilities are many with this Watcher. Since it was in the same location as the Balrog; it may have escaped along with him during the War of Wrath. The more I think about it; I'm tending to think it was just another foul creature bred by Morgoth; another Dragon type thing.

In looking at all the discussion on this thread, I find it funny that so many seem so confused by the Watcher. Many things seem clear to me...

1) Gandalf was speaking of the Watcher when saying 'there are things older than he'

2) I agree with Bucky that 'older than Sauron' does not refer to him as a Maia, but from his entering ME as a personal force. (Just as Gandalf refers to Treebeard as 'the oldest living thing in ME'. Technically, he wouldn't be, the wizard Maia would be, but as far as living in ME, he would be)

I agree with Theoden at the beginning of this thread. I believe the Watcher was not controlled by anyone, but most likely the evil power of the ring drew it to Frodo. I believe we shouldn't read more into Gandalf's observation of this than that.

The ring draws and corrupts that which is evil or prone to it (such as Gollum). I would say the Watcher would fit that description, don't you?

by Thorin
I agree with Bucky that 'older than Sauron' does not refer to him as a Maia, but from his entering ME as a personal force.

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That is certainly one of the many possibilities.

by Thorin
Gandalf was speaking of the Watcher when saying 'there are things older than he'

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Possibly; but he speaking about creatures “in general” when he made that statement. He was reciting his battle with the Balrog to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn:

"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into the dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

I see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

by Thorin
In looking at all the discussion on this thread, I find it funny that so many seem so confused by the Watcher.

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Confused? We’re not confused; we are just bored and like to babble about nonsense and ridiculous theories . That’s why we join forums .