Who is older - Tom Bombadil or Treebeard?

[Rivendell_librarian]

Tom Bombadil is described as "oldest and fatherless" in The Council of Elrond and Treebeard is described as "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the sun" in The White Rider. Tom Shippey's explanation is to accept that Bombadil is not living in the way that the Nazgul and the Barrow-wight are not dead. Hmm. What do others think?

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

I've always felt Bombadil was older.

Don't ask me why - just because I rank amongst the Aratar does not mean I would know the answer to such a question.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

What if Bombadil is actually Eru in human form? Otherwise, how can he be fatherless? In this case I'd say that Eru/Bombadil is the oldest one in the whole world, while Treebeard could be among the first creatures who appeared precisely in Middle-Earth. Eru could make Middle-Earth full of trees first when it was being prepared for the elves' and men's appearance.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

What if Bombadil is actually Eru in human form?

Then why would there have been no mention of Bombadil at all in The Silmarillion?

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

Then why would there have been no mention of Bombadil at all in The Silmarillion?

Maybe this is because in The Silmarillion the Age is different.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

Maybe this is because in The Silmarillion the Age is different.

😧 I had not thought of that...

My my, affairs of Time are always so intriguing...

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

😧 I had not thought of that...

My my, affairs of Time are always so intriguing...

I mean that perhaps Eru didn't need a human form during the First Age.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

I mean that perhaps Eru didn't need a human form during the First Age.

What made you think that he needed an incarnate form during the later Ages, then?

 

[Radaghast]

Tom calls himself "eldest" but Celeborn calls Treebeard the same. I'm guessing Celeborn is unaware of Tom's existence or doesn't know what he's about.

Anyway, I'm going with Tom.

 

[Olorgando]

What if Bombadil is actually Eru in human form?

I'd guess that such a speculation would make JRRT's hair stand on end ... 🥶

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

What made you think that he needed an incarnate form during the later Ages, then?

Well, I don't know exactly. I'll think about it.

I'd guess that such a speculation would make JRRT's hair stand on end ... 🥶

Why? I'm just trying to find possible similarities with The Bible which was important for Tolkien, no doubt.

 

[Olorgando]

Why? I'm just trying to find possible similarities with The Bible which was important for Tolkien, no doubt.

While JRRT conceded that some of his characters showed character traits to be found in people mentioned in the Bible, he was adamant that in all cases the differences were far greater. He would have considered any such attempt, on his part or by others, to introduce specifics of the Bible into a story as blasphemous. An incarnation on earth of "The One" thousands of years before the New Testament would probably top his list of blasphemies.
It sounds almost like you're trying to find allegories to the Bible in his works ... 🥶

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

It sounds almost like you're trying to find allegories to the Bible in his works ...

And Tolkien himself was known to have a great dislike for allegory.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Tom, no doubt to me.
I think Tom is maia, probably been there before elves woke (like Melian, and probably some other maias inhabiting middle earth).

No doubt, Treebeard is very old too. Probably older then any elf inhabitating middle earth at that point of time.
Can't remember if in the Silmarilion is mentioned when Ents were "awoken", but I guess it might be even before elves woke, to protect forests of Morgoth beasts.

What if Bombadil is actually Eru in human form? Otherwise, how can he be fatherless?

I think "fatherless" is more meant in elves, or human, or dwarfs eyes... not in Tom's eye.
From the perspective of all living beings created after Tom, he is the oldest one... fatherless...

While JRRT conceded that some of his characters showed character traits to be found in people mentioned in the Bible, he was adamant that in all cases the differences were far greater. He would have considered any such attempt, on his part or by others, to introduce specifics of the Bible into a story as blasphemous. An incarnation on earth of "The One" thousands of years before the New Testament would probably top his list of blasphemies.
It sounds almost like you're trying to find allegories to the Bible in his works ... 🥶

Fully agreed.
Well said!

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

I think Tom is maia

Which Vala/Valie would he have served then?

 

[d4rk3lf]

Which Vala/Valie would he have served then?

How could I know that?
Does every Maia needs to serve some Vala?
I can recall, if it's mentioned if Melian served any Vala, for example.
If he had to serve some Vala... I guess he could be student of Yavanna.

Nobody knows who Tom is... I just think (personally) that he is maia... maybe even his wife...

 

[Rivendell_librarian]

Istr JRRT in one of his letters confessed he had left Tom Bombadil as something of an enigma.

 

[Ent]

I think Tom is maia, probably been there before elves woke

I've always resisted the notion that Tom is Maia... though I don't know why.
If we consider it, the Istari were Maia, given a particular charge from the Valar.

What if Tom was a Maia who came originally to support the Valar, but then decided at some point, like 4 of the 5 Istari did, to just 'do his own thing' and not fulfill his responsibilities to 'help the Valar' in their work on Ea?

What if he just decided to take on a human form, stay that way, and be a jolly old Maia? Is this not just as possible as the Blue Wizards and Radagast not fulfilling their charge, but being 'just fine thank you very much' in what they decided to do?

Hum. A new thought for me.

One thing that militates AGAINST that for me, is that the term "eldest" is not applied to Maiar or Valar. They are essentially 'eternal' though not 'everlasting'. "Eldar" is always applied to those who were 'awakened' - the Children of Illuvatar, both adopted and created... and the Ents, who were said to have been awakened before the Elves even at one spot.

So I still struggle with good ole' Tom.

The thread's question is one for the Great Halls, had they not burned down.

 

[Radaghast]

I mean that perhaps Eru didn't need a human form during the First Age.

Tolkien would never even suggest that Eru would fall to Sauron.

Anyway, in the words of the Professor himself,

As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

• The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #144

 

[Elthir]

In an "unpublished" draft letter of late 1968, now in a private collection, Tolkien wrote:

"Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking"

The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion Hammond and Scull, page 382 Treebeard: Entry 464 The Ent

And on page 499, while explaining Tolkien describing both Treebeard and Bombadil as "eldest", Hammond and Scull note: " . . . it is worth repeating Christopher Tolkien’s comment that his father was given to "rhetorical superlatives",
such as "the oldest living thing".