Who is stupider Merry or Pippin?

I meant by that particular phrase the sort of optimism of the very young (not all of them and probably more in my generation than in yours) which believes - in spite of all evidence to the contrary - that "everything is going to work out in the end".

Alas, later generations, poisoned by drugs and violence and betrayed by so much of what once had been the support structures of the culture (family, religion, government, schools, the law etc.) may not really understand the sort of optimism that once was a very real part of youth. It is sad enough to have that bouyant state of mind depart when maturity reveals how unfair life really is, but it is even sadder to realize that so many young people today have never experienced it in the first place.

In any event, I hope that you now understand what I meant by "hopeless optimism" since in Tolkien's world, no doubt such a state of mind still existed among the young at least in sheltered places like The Shire.

Off topic, but I've been thinking that Lantarion, the great and holy spell check guy, is also a mod...

Why don't you just follow me around editing my posts? It'd help you gain piece of mind....


he he he


just kidding...

in the book i think that pippen is most definaitely an idoit
, but merry is quite the opposite. he as was said may not think things though, but he is also the person that put to gether the conserisy*(sp).
merry also had enough corrage to stab the black captian in the knee
while pippen only stabbed a troll and got ready to sink into death underneth him.

While certainly not the brightest star in the firmament, Pippin (notice, PippIn), is hardly worthy of round comdemnation... I mean he's the youngest, and I'd say he has his place in the halls of heros. He had the sense to go get Gandalf when Denethor blew his stack.

I wouldn't say they are stupid,especially not about Meriadoc. Pippin is clumsy and silly and doesn't think before he speaks. So I vote for Pippin, but only concerning the first few chapters of the LOTR. At the end, they are both mature and competent hobbits. Yay for these two!

Mrs M, excuse my facetiousness!

But M&P's optimism was not 'hopeless' or misplaced at all. It was absolutely right...

I don't think Pippin had any sense at all, at least Merry had a little bit. But i guess they were the comic relief in the books.

Blantently Pippin. he is so stupid it makes me laugh!

Some of those responding are confusing foolish, reckless and impulsive with stupid. Many intrinsically intelligent people do foolish, impulsive and reckless things. They are still, however, intelligent and able to act accordingly.

Pippin (and Merry) simply cannot BE "stupid". Their actions as the story progresses more than prove that.

The term "stupid" denotes a limited intelligence. Trolls are stupid and they are limited in their ability to respond to situations for that reason. Tolkien "itb" talks about the possibility of "cunning" trolls - which would be a great evil indeed.

The English language is not all that precise, but in this case it is. The question might be, which of the two hobbits is more foolish or impulsive or reckless or unthinking (and in that case it would probably be Pippin - who was also, however, more the more clever of the two), but it cannot be which is the more STUPID because neither of them were.

Originally posted by snaga1
The 'more stupid than Pippin' list...

5. Boromir
.

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I don't think so.Boromir is responsible for what he has done but.There's one big BUT.He does everything because of his people,because of Gondor.His people die protecting not only Gondor,but the whole ME and he wants to stop that as soon as possible,using the ring.I believe also that everybody would think the same things if he were at his place.He can be naive,just like Merry and Pippin,because he believes the ring would help his people,but nothing more.

Certainly Boromir's view of the Ring is greatly influenced by the weakening condition of Gondor and he believes, at first, that the Ring would be a powerful weapon if it were to be wielded by a great warlord. However, at the Council he is advised that the Ring is far too powerful and treacherous to be used by ANYONE save its maker - and apparently in both the book and the film, he accepts the correction.

However, as time goes on in the Quest, there can be no doubt that the Ring works upon his ambition as well as his fear for his people - although by that point, there probably isn't much difference between the two. In the book, this personal desire for the Ring is demonstrated when Boromir begins to talk to and about himself as a great War Lord through his possession of the Ring (at the confrontation with Frodo in Parth Galen). True, he will be fighting for Gondor, but plainly, the matter has long since gone from what someone wielding the Ring can do to protect Gondor and what Boromir the Great would be able to do with the Ring of Power.

At the time that Boromir attempts to wrest the Ring from Frodo, he is completely under its power. Gandalf tells Denethor this very thing when the latter says that his son would have returned "bearing a great gift (the Ring)". Gandalf bluntly replies that had that been the case, "...you would not have known your son."

Boromir is hardly stupid, but he shows himself weaker than Aragorn (who has already been offered the Ring by Frodo and refused it) or Gandalf (who had also been offered the Ring) or Faramir (who refuses to try to take it from Frodo when the opportunity presents itself) or Galadriel (who refuses it freely offered) and even weaker than Frodo himself who only succumbs to the Ring at the last moment after years of possessing it. Still, it would be wrong to think that Boromir's fall was the result of stupidity because it was not. Many "smart" people had fallen under the spell of the Ring including Isildur and Saruman - so Boromir isn't in such bad company after all.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I wouldn't say they are stupid,especially not about Meriadoc. Pippin is clumsy and silly and doesn't think before he speaks. So I vote for Pippin, but only concerning the first few chapters of the LOTR. At the end, they are both mature and competent hobbits. Yay for these two!

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I can't believe I agree with you!It's a miracle .Seriously,Pippin and Merry become hobbits of a noble origin later,when they get more experienced.
I would like to add that I didn't mean Merry and Pippin from the movie,but Merry and Pippin from the book.They're quite different,don't you agree?

in the movie M & P are made out to be a pair of young and idodic fools.
they book how ever say that while young they are not without genuine thought.
the consprisey is a highlight of merrys in the first book and yes M&P both become among the great ones by the end

PS sorry about my spelling in my eariler post.

Nooooo! I didn’t vote on this poll because neither of them are “stupid”. That’s way too harsh. Both of them go on to achieve greatness, both of them achieve great deeds in battle and both of them are good and noble characters. All these posts about “stupid”, “no sense”, “idiots” and “morons” are waaay off the mark.

I think the majority of us are under the opinion that this poll is a bit harsh on them... to say the least.

I didn't mean "moron", "idiot"or something like that.Stupid sounds more neutral so I used it.But my thoughts about M and P are absolutely positive!Just wanted to see who is .......

I don't think they are stupid.Maybe a little bit clumsy.But they are funy.
Merry and Pippin are maybe the only characters who show a sense of humor in a period like that.
So we shouldn't blame them that they want to live complete.

Originally posted by Finduilas
I don't think they are stupid.Maybe a little bit clumsy.But they are funy.
Merry and Pippin are maybe the only characters who show a sense of humor in a period like that.
So we shouldn't blame them that they want to live complete.

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Who M and P do you have in mind,Tolkien's ot Peter Jackson's?

Tolkien's,I guess!
In fact there are many similarities with the book and one of them is maybe the characters of Merry,Pippin and Sam

Just a slight protest... I have read both Aragorn and Gandalf saying funny things... and I think it was intentional. Read the scene where Merry wakes up in the Return of the King... Aragorn always makes me laugh with his talk about the Herb guy and pipeweed...