Who is the best swordsman in all middle earth and arda history?

[Turin_Turambar]

If you remember before, I made my own list. I want to know your opinions. Who do you think is the best swordsman in the history of middle earth? I said Turin Turambar because the dragon killed Glaurung and Melkor. The high elf Fingolfin could not. But turin killed Melkor in Dagor Dagorath. What are your thoughts?

 

[1stvermont]

Swordsmith, this is a very nice list. I think I will wait for comments and arguments before i cast my vote.

 

[m4r35n357]

Dagor Dagorath has not happened yet . . .

Also consider that Morgoth might have made Turin more destructive (and indestructible, up to the end!) as part of the curse on Hurin.

As to Feanor, I am not sure whether he killed more Orcs or Elves, if the latter, it might be more tricky to compare him with the others.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Dagor Dagorath has not happened yet . . .

This

 

[ZehnWaters]

This

Maedhros was described as being an excellent swordsman, wasn't he? Eonwë would be the best if we're counting Ainur as he's stated as being the most skilled in all arms.

As far as Túrin is concerned, I think he was mostly just brought out to execute Morgoth. Or I'm just remembering a lot of things wrong.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Yup, it just says Turin deals the death blow:

"Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers have grown weary, Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and all shall be darkness, for the sun he will turn to black, and the moon will no longer shed his light.. But the Host of Valinor shall descend upon him as a searing flame, white and terrible. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all fallen Men be avenged."

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Maedhros was described as being an excellent swordsman, wasn't he? Eonwë would be the best if we're counting Ainur as he's stated as being the most skilled in all arms.

As far as Túrin is concerned, I think he was mostly just brought out to execute Morgoth. Or I'm just remembering a lot of things wrong.

Eönwe and other ainur are not included in the list, because they are spirits superior to other created races.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

I think Aragorn is the best swordsman as he has a special sword and it's a great responsibility. Being a swordsman is not only about fighting, you know.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Dagor Dagorath has not happened yet . . .

Also consider that Morgoth might have made Turin more destructive (and indestructible, up to the end!) as part of the curse on Hurin.

As to Feanor, I am not sure whether he killed more Orcs or Elves, if the latter, it might be more tricky to compare him with the others.

You do know that the history of middle earth is purely fictional, right? According to the second prophecy of Mandos, after the 4th age, at the end of the ancient days, Dagor Dagorath comes true and Melkor is killed by Turin. so i think the fact that dagor dagorath was lived or not does not mean that dagor dagorath does not exist.

 

[Ealdwyn]

I think Aragorn is the best swordsman as he has a special sword and it's a great responsibility. Being a swordsman is not only about fighting, you know.

But owning a great sword doesn't make you a great swordman. Even the greatest sword in ME is useless if you don't have the skill to use it.
Aragorn was a competant swordsman, but I can't recall him having any special skill with it.

 

[The Golden Flower]

I was split between Turin and Fingolfin on voting, but in the end decided Fingolfin was superior. As an elf, he has got to be superior, plus his battle with melkor gives him the upper hand.

 

[m4r35n357]

You do know that the history of middle earth is purely fictional, right?

A fictional history of this earth, yes.

 

[Olorgando]

Maybe we need to reach an agreement as to the meaning of the word "history".
In JRRT's legendarium, as in the world, history concerns things of the past.
Any prophecy concerns itself with the future, with what has not taken place yet.
But within the legendarium, there is the prophecy that the Witch-king "would not fall by the hand of a man" or words to that effect.
Proven true by his physical destruction by the halfling Meriadoc and the shield-maiden Éowyn at the battle of the Pelennor Fields.
This prophecy has been fulfilled, and thus also become history.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (never mind for now that it is hotly disputed as even remotely approaching canon) concerns the end of days, the end of Arda, and the Dagor Dagorath prophesied for this time has more than a passing resemblance to the Norse Ragnarök - with significant differences (neither of which is surprising in JRRT's writing).

But at the time of the last writings concerning Middle-earth and Aman, the Dagor Dagorath as an event is still far in the future, and is in no way "history". The - dubious - prophecy would be historical - had it ever made its way into canon writing by JRRT himself. The prophesied event itself has nothing in the least to do with history.

 

[m4r35n357]

I don't know where the idea of a "Second Prophesy of Mandos" comes from. In the published Silmarillion there is a Doom or Curse of Mandos/herald (Prophesy of the North). The Prophesy at the end is not there, to see it you need to read the (HoME) Quenta Silmarillion (QS or QS1). At the end there is a Prophesy, but it is not called the Second Prophesy. I suspect the internet/YouTube . . .

In any case, I don't detect any real argument about when the (one and only) Prophesy of Mandos will be fulfilled

 

[Elthir]

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

"Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos." JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Christopher Tolkien, the constructed Silmarillion

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

 

[Olorgando]

I don't know where the idea of a "Second Prophesy of Mandos" comes from.

As I happen to own the 2002 book "The History of Middle-earth Index", I can help you out.
It shows two references, HoMe volume 5 "The Lost Road", pages 324 and 333. The index of volume 5 agrees on the page numbers.

Page 324:
"The text is closely related to Q II, §§17-19, and for substantial stretches, especially towards the end, the earlier work was followed with unusual fidelity: thus for example the Second Prophecy of Mandos, with its mysterious elements, was repeated virtually without change."

This appears to be an explanatory preface to "Part Two: Valinor and Middle-earth before the Lord of the Rings", section VI "Quenta Silmarillion", last sub-section "The conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion". What then follows is the actual text.

Page 333:
"§31 Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the sun and moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë {not yet Eonwë!}, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all men be avenged."

 

[Olorgando]

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

Abandoned by JRRT himself, yes, but ...

 

[m4r35n357]

Page 324:
"The text is closely related to Q II, §§17-19, and for substantial stretches, especially towards the end, the earlier work was followed with unusual fidelity: thus for example the Second Prophecy of Mandos, with its mysterious elements, was repeated virtually without change."

Ah, so it looks like Christopher came up with the term, so that answers my question.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien.

"Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos." JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Christopher Tolkien, the constructed Silmarillion

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

OK, if if is from Laws & Customs, it is beyond my reach, I just can't do it

It is a personal thing, but anything in the "histories" after QS1 (apart from the expanded tales; Tuor, Turin, Hurin) is too fractured and incomplete for me to work with in my head! In which case I rely on the published Silmarillion anyway, and that makes the point moot as you say.

 

[Olorgando]

Ah, so it looks like Christopher came up with the term, so that answers my question.

Possibly, I don't know. In volume 4 of HoMe "The Shaping of Middle-earth" there is an index item "Prophecy of Mandos", and one entry has "(Second) Prophecy of Mandos", pages 40-41, and 73. Pages 40-41 belong to what Christopher Tolkien back then (1986) called Part II "The Earliest Silmarillion", and are a shorter version of what I quoted above as Page 333, §31. The bit on Page 73 has some distinct differences:

"For 'tis said that ere the Great End come Melko shall in some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilinsor {"male" moon Maia} shall seek to follow Urwendi {"female" sun Maia} through the Gates, and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilinsor shall be lost. So shall it be that Fionwë Úrion, son of Manwë, of love for Urwendi shall in the end be Melko's bane, and shall destroy the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things be rolled away."

And another quote a few lines later:

"Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."

Those perhaps 5,000 pages of HoMe are a huge menu. Everyone can find things to their liking.

 

[Elthir]

We also have Tolkien's notes to the Athrabeth Commentary (as no one calls it), specifically note 7, in which JRRT describes the End of Arda (well, sort of) as the Elves imagined it, including the End Times description at the end of the Silmarillion (as it still stood). Tolkien writes:

"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition." JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

*note 19 " . . . in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos." Christopher Tolkien

Again, Second Prophecy . . . gone 💥