Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
There has been protracted discussion in other forums and such that Bombadil might well be the physical manifestation of Manwë and that Tolkien had made mention of this, perhaps in the letter, but I have yet to find any reference to this idea anywhere...

How can this be so RW? In The Lost Road Tolkien clearly states that the Valar (being strictly inclusive of Manwe) would not return to the Circles of the World until Melkor escapes the Void and Turin Turambar slays him. So, what's the deal. Can you get a few things that people have been saying on the other forums or just give me the link.

 

[Bombadillodillo]

Bombadil, the eldest and fatherless

So, if Bombadil says that he is the oldest, and Gandalf the White says Treebeard/Fangorn is the oldest, then, who is the oldest. If you read through the whole thread Mithrandir2003, then you will find that throughout Tolkien's books there is no way to either prove or disprove a contradiction outlined here in Tolkien's works.

The answer is quite clear. Bombadil claims that he was before the trees or the coming of the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf is the one who claims that Treebeard was the oldest living creature to walk in MiddleEarth. Has it occurred to anyone that Gandalf was mistaken in that assertion and not Tolkien?

You forget that many at the Council of Elrond remarked that they had forgotten about Bombadil altogether and Gandalf, though Maia, does have memory slips. Must be from having taking on mortal flesh, shrinking mind to fit a little noggin. But perhaps it wasn't a slip at all. As unlikely as it may seem, perhaps Gandalf didn't know that Tom was before the trees or the fall of the first acorn (likely prior even to the first oak). Recall also that Gandalf said that when all was done he would like to have a conversation with Bombadil such as he had never had before. I take that to mean that he had't had time to spend in leisure with Bombadil and therefore the question of Bombadil's origin may not have come up. Gandalf is a rolling stone, Bombadil a stone grown over with moss.

Whatever the reason, Gandalf erred not Tolkien.

Though I wonder whether Tolkien still didn't make a mistake. For if Bombadil was before the trees and the peoples of middleEarth, whatever was he doing? There was no one for him to talk to, nothing to observe, no lilies to gather nor no one for whom to gather. What tunes was Tom a learning in that desolate land?

 

[Bombadillo]

on the grey havans website, someone has made a rather extremely long explanation of what tom bombadil was, he says he is just the reader itself, it is a nice explanation, but its too bad that it takes you out of the story of ME....

but still, its worth reading

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/bbeier.html

ps: bombadillodillo, did I steal your name, if so, I'm terribly sorry

 

[Lantarion]

The mentioned Mr. Bombadillodillo has not been very...actively participant in these forums, that I have noticed anyway. So I'm sure it's alright.
That is a good explanation, Gandalf 'messing up'. As unlikely as it seems, I suppose the greatest Istar of all the five might mess up now and again.
It is impossible to say what Tom is exactly, but judging by his own words (which might be exaggerated, to entertain his guests), being around before the trees and therefore before Fangorn, it would seem that he was a secret Vala or Maia sent to overlook the creation of Arda. Hey, that's not a bad idea! Go me! But anyway, if Tom was around only moments prior to the creation of Arda there would have only been void and space. A Maia or Vala would undoubtedly be able to exist in such an environment.. But I seem to remember from the Silmarillion that when Arda was created all the lands were filled with grass, trees, rivers, mountains, etc. almost simultaneously. So Tom wouldn't have been alone for long, and maybe Melkor did not observe him when he advanced onto Arda in his wrath. Tom Bombadil, the Maia of Reassurance.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

No Contradiction at all

The problem here is that we must define what we are talking about. "Living" seems the key word here.

Immortals do not die, thus may not necessarily be considered living. In the beginning, all of the Valar and Maiar seem to have been "created" at the same time, and immortal. Thus Sauron, Gandalf, etc..., would all likely be the same age. I personally would place Bombadil in that category.

Treebeard, however, was living, because he would eventually die (as he mentions some of his kin do). Thus he may be the oldest of the "living" creatures without being contradictory.

 

[Wonko The Sane]

Seems like Fingol here has a point.

Obiously Gandalf posesses the qualities of life...or appears to. (Breathing, eating, singing, snogging and such...) As does Bombadil, but if they were truly immortal then they may not be classified in the same category as Treebeard.
However...Gandalf could apparently be killed...which I still don't understand as he was brought back to life but that's another thread...

I agree with Fingol that we COULD look at it that way...but there's no way we could know for sure...

 

[Wonko The Sane]

No problem, just don't expect this agreement thing to be habbit...if I think you're wrong...I'll flame you utterly.

 

[FINGOLFIN]

Okay, but.....

Have I mentioned I'm flame resistant, having been raised by Balrogs??

 

[Wonko The Sane]

No. Have I mentioned what a beast Glorfindel is?
He killed a Balrog...and since he and I are snogging, he'd kill you too...
If you displease me.

 

[Morgaphry]

Who is Older? Bombadil or Treebeard?

They both say that they are eldest, but which do you believe?

Morgaphry

 

[gate7ole]

Bombadil is older. He was here BEFORE the Stars and the Sun, BEFORE the Dark Lord came back from the Outer (which means before Melkor returned to destroy the lamps). As I understand it he was either created simultaneously with Arda, or he came (as a spirit, Vala, Maia or whatever you believe) during its construction.

 

[Ponte]

Tom Bombadill, for the same reasons that gate7ol has posted above.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Bom Tombadil.

 

[Meriadoc]

Yeah I'd say Tom Bombadil is the oldest. Obviously there were beings before Treebeard came to be what he is.