Who Is Your Favorite 🧌Orc?

[Vardarianna]

Man. Where do I sign up to Saruman's cross-breeding program.

That reminded me of the way Saruman interbred men and orcs. Did he use his wizardry to 'blend' the races, making specialty man-orc/orc-men for various purposes? Granted, I believe his main purpose was to breed the Uruk-Hai, strong orcs that could withstand the sun and daylight, but maybe there was a 90% man/10% orc which enhanced the man's trackeing skills and resulted in the @Squint-eyed Southerner? And maybe a 90%orc/10% man that gave the boundary work orcs a bit more smarts in making weapons? To me, the blends and possibilities are endless in my imagination!

Question... what 'blend' do you think the Uruk-Hai were. Let's take Lurtz as an example. I'd say 50% orc-soldier, 20% tracker orc, and 30% man.
Another question... if Saruman could do that wit orcs and men, could he have done t with trolls too?

 

[CCC]

Did he use his wizardry to 'blend' the races,

Question... what 'blend' do you think the Uruk-Hai were. Let's take Lurtz as an example. I'd say 50% orc-soldier, 20% tracker orc, and 30% man.

I imagine sorcery was much more malicious and would be easier to 'blend' than the zap of 'wizardry'.

My guess would be 50% orc soldier, 20% tracker, 20% man, and 10% pomegranate.

 

[CCC]

🤣Squint-eyed Southerner

I was being serious.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I vote for Uglúk.

You gotta love Uglúk:

We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here, and we shall lead you back by the way we choose. I am Uglúk. I have spoken.

-

'We are the fighting Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?'​

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

🤣Squint-eyed Southerner

I was being serious.

10% pomegranate.

Only 10%?

 

[Eldacar]

As for my favourite orc ... it's still Shagrat... love he and Gorbag's exchange in the books, and the name alone is priceless! 😆

To me, since my first reading of this exchange, it's Gorbag. Sure, Shagrats name is a bit cooler than his, but the way Gorbag could complain about his arrogant and unlikeable superiors struck a nerve with me. And him proposing to simply desert from the Army and live some "peaceful" life somewhere in the countryside was the icing on the cake. For a short time, I really rooted for him as he was to me the most human orc in the story.

"We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." (Lord of the Rings, The Choices of Master Samwise)

 

[Elthir]

Question... what 'blend' do you think the Uruk-Hai were.

I think the Uruk-hai ("Ork-folk") are Orks.

The Uruks were said to have first appeared out of Mordor (Appendix A), and I'd say, at least by the time Merry and Pippin encounter them, those Uruks who had joined Saruman were well trained to endure the Sun.

In The Two Towers both the Isengarders and the Orks from Mordor run better under the Winter Sun than the Northerners* — with Ugluk calling the Northerners "only half-trained" mountain maggots when they complain about running in sunlight.

Saruman's Uruks were also trained (The Battles of The Fords Isen) to move at great speed for many miles, even when heavily armed.

* and while, at a certain point in the narrative, the Northerners were flagging by the time the Isengarders came upon them, this is after the description that: "a few of the larger and bolder Northerners remained with them."

_________________

Then I'd say we have Saruman's breeding program: Orks mating with Men "producing both Men-orks large and cunning, and Ork-men treacherous and vile." (Orks, Text X, Myths Transformed).

And to my mind, these are the Half-orks described in The Lord of the Rings.

 

[d4rk3lf]

That reminded me of the way Saruman interbred men and orcs. Did he use his wizardry to 'blend' the races, making specialty man-orc/orc-men for various purposes? Granted, I believe his main purpose was to breed the Uruk-Hai, strong orcs that could withstand the sun and daylight, but maybe there was a 90% man/10% orc which enhanced the man's trackeing skills and resulted in the [

Err.. wasn't this one of many "facts" that are only in the movies?
For all I know Urug Hai is just another tribe of orcs. Maybe enhanced by Saruman to withstand the sun, and nothing more.
I can't recall that anywhere in Tolkiens works that Urug Hai are breed between man and orcs...
It might have been mentioned somewhere, but it's not Urug Hai (that are just Orc tribe)....

But then again , apart my criticism of PJ movies, this stuff I think he did good (making Saruman creating new species).
I only wish (in the movies) if Saruman do that for himself... not because of Sauron.

 

[Eldacar]

I could have sworn to have read it somewhere but right now I can't find it. Only a bunch of circumstantial evidence. What is regularly found is that, the Uruks emerged first from Mordor during the reign of Denethor the first and that Saruman bred some himself, but it isn't specified how this breeding works. I guess, Tolkien wasn't keen on finding out.

Robert Foster states in his Lexicon (translated from the German Version):

"Sarumans spies in Bree and the men of the boss most certainly had, even though they were no pure Uruk-Hai, at least some Uruk-Blood running through their veins."
which I see as a sign of Human-Uruk reproduction. So the general idea of mixing the races seems confirmed. In the Two Towers Treebeard is talking about the Uruks of Isengard:

"For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

Our own Wiki states:
"There was a theory that the Uruk-hai produced by Saruman resulted from crossbreeding between man and orc."

I for myself was always convinced they were a mixed breed of dark men and orcs, but there is a reason to doubt that and from some quick research I couldn't gather sufficient evidence to prove it. If this theory was popularized by the movies, at least it was not made up from thin air.

 

[CCC]

Stumbled across this on Wikipedia, something I didn't know till now.
Tolkien certainly would've known about William Blake's mythologies. I'm sure this is old news for you LOTR brainiacs.

The name Orc is possibly an anagram of the word cor (heart), in that he was stated in Blake's myth to be born of Enitharmon's heart, or orca (whale) because he sometimes takes the form of a whale. Orcus is also the Latin word for Hell

My reference to the 10% pomegranate remark was just an aferthought about how Saruman might have injected anger and hate into his creatures. I could have said crocus, or unicorn hair, it was just the first thing that came to mind.

 

[Elthir]

Robert Foster states in his Lexicon (edit for brevity) So the general idea of mixing the races seems confirmed.

And it's confirmed directly by Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring (that Saruman interbred Orks with Men).

In the Two Towers Treebeard is talking about the Uruks of Isengard:

Treebeard is talking about Isengarders, yes; but is he necessarily talking about Uruks? I'll give the same quote a different emphasis in bold blue (leaving your emphasis in bold black):

"For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

Meaning, I'd say, Treebeard wonders, but does not know.

However, the Ent strikes at the truth: Saruman has mated Orks with Men. And I keep in mind, Treebeard says it was a good thing he'd heard the hobbits before he saw them " — if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little orks, and found out my mistake afterwards.". . .

. . . so in my opinion, the Ent could have easily mistaken goblin-faced half-orks (see below) for Uruks.

____________________

In Flotsam and Jetsam Merry described Isengard being "emptied". His description, in order:

1) Endless lines of marching orks, with some mounted on wolves.

keeping in mind that Merry had already spent enough time among orks before saying this

Then. . .

2) Battalions of Men. . .

3) . . . and some of these "Men" were horrible: "man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow leering, squint-eyed"

And these remind Merry of the Southerner at Bree, "only that he was not so obviously ork-like as most of these were." Aragorn responds that many of these "Half-orks" were at Helm's Deep.

It seems to me, anyway, that we have some Half-orks who look enough like Men to serve as spies, and yet other Half-orks who were too obviously ork-like for that. Tolkien's choice of Ork-men and Men-orks (not Uruk-hai in any case) to describe the result of this interbreeding, is nicely, in my opinion, in line with this. . .

. . . that is, the Men-orks being more mannish, even some mannish enough to spy among Men, and the Ork-men being more orkish.

I note too that these were "Man-high" while even the "huge ork-chieftain" in Moria was "almost man-high" according to the text. And the Men-orks from Morgoth's Ring get the description large and cunning, while the Ork-men get: treacherous and vile.

🐾

 

[Saint the Mother of Orcs]

I wasn't paying much attention, because I just can't swallow this pill, but got pinged for this orc:

​

Now, I'm concerned, because I know Amazon have a great ability how to ruin a masterpiece even in ways you'd never see coming, but the concept itself I find quite interesting. Orcs feared and hated Sauron, and some has been rebels, that much is certain, so I'm curious what this fella will pull out, even if he isn't canon. Here I was about to say that well, technically, Lurtz is not, either, but I caught myself making excuses, and it's the sign of a kind of corruption I haven't sign up for!

Either way, Marnûkh seems -besides Sauron- appears to be the only thing worth risking my dignity just to look and hear. Do I have the strength? Hardly. But again, desperate times, and this cute face would possibly not do anything horrendous and expected-unexpected, right?