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Who '💀killed' the Witch King?

Who 'killed' the Witch King?

  • Eowyn

    Votes: 43 65.2%

  • Merry

    Votes: 9 13.6%

  • Frodo (when he destroyed the One Ring)

    Votes: 9 13.6%

  • Eowyn, Merry and Frodo

    Votes: 5 7.6%
  • Total voters
    66
And why does this quote "sort of refute the idea of the blades being known only to the dunedain of Cardolan"?
 
It reffers to the Dunedain as a whole, not to the ones of Cardolan; it integrates the blades "with the entire mytho-historical background, events in an agelong war" - which would not be possible if the blades were the exclusive and obscure property of the Cardolan ones only. The emphasis of Tolkien's intent is on the general dunedain, not on fractions.
 
I don’t like pursuing this in two forums at once: the whole discussion becomes much more confused, and arguments and responses made in one forum become conflated with those in another. People who are not in both places can lose the threads of the discussions pretty quickly, and I do, too.

I made the argument that these blades were peculiar to Cardolan. I don’t that like that conclusion. I have to come to it because:
  • We know that the daggers were made by the Northern Dúnedain because Denethor tells Pippin, and Tolkien as narrator tells us. Bombadil is almost that specific when he first retrieves the knives.
  • We know from Tolkien as narrator that the daggers were meant to undo the spells binding the Nazgûl (specifically, the Witch-king, although I strongly suspect they were all vulnerable) to the wraith-world. We also know from previously unpublished citations if Tolkien in Reader’s Companion that they acted on the Ringwraiths as the Morgul-blades acted on Frodo.
  • We can narrow the time in which these daggers were made to a 280-year period.
    • Argeleb I died in III 1356 after the Hillmen of Rhudaur made an alliance with Angmar to launch the first war between Angmar and the Dúnedain of the North. From all that we know, that has to be the first experience of the Dúnedain with the Lord of the Nazgûl as Witch-king of Angmar.
    • Tyrn Gorthad was infested with barrow-wights in III 1636 following the devastation of Cardolan in the Great Plague.
    • The daggers were almost certainly placed in the barrow by the Dúnedain themselves.
      • The barrows were successfully used by the Dúnedain as defensive positions in the disastrous war with Angmar in III 1409.
      • The Witch-king probably sent the wights into the barrows to prevent the Dúnedain from using barrows this way again. He succeeded.
  • These are really potent weapons. Nobody tells the hobbits what they can do. Why would Elrond, Aragorn, Gandalf, and everyone else fail to tell them unless
    • they don’t know, or
    • they don’t want one of the hobbits to impetuously attack a Ringwraith.
  • Aragorn knows that the knives are “bound about with spells for the bane of Mordor,” as you have pointed out in the other forum, but I am not at all certain that means that he knew what the intention of the weapons-maker was. It is a very suggestive comment, and I would be very pleased (really and truly) if you could show me that I am mistaken and that Aragorn did know why the blades were made.
  • Denethor recognized that Pippin’s dagger/short sword was “wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past,” but he never hints that he knew why the Northern Dúnedain made it.
  • Everything indicates that people knew the daggers were made “for the bane of Mordor” – to hurt Sauron’s minions. Aragorn believed even the orcs could tell it. But no character other than Tom Bombadil and the Nazgûl takes any action or makes any positive sign that indicates that he knows why these blades were made in the first place.
The upshot is that while it is clear that these are Dúnedain weapons, the purpose of the weapons has been forgotten. The Eldar don’t know, the Northern and Southern Dúnedain don’t know, and Gandalf doesn’t know. The blades are buried in Cardolan, outside Arthedain, in the tomb of the last Prince of Cardolan. You can argue that the folks in Arthedain were picnicking in the barrows in Cardolan, but that doesn’t make sense. Maybe they started out in Arthedain, but there isn’t any indication of it.

I’m not kidding when I say that I don’t like the idea that these things were made in solely Cardolan. But everything that we know so far makes sense only if
  • the weapons were made in Cardolan,
  • the people who made them and knew about them were killed in Cardolan during the war of 1409, and
  • the blades were buried with the last Prince of Cardolan.
That ties everything up in a clean simple package. That doesn’t make it right, and I find it very uncomfortable. But I’d like to see something that builds out the quote you’ve offered: the Cardolan suit still fits the quote.

The Cardolan manufacture hypothesis, if we can give a flowery-sounding label, is a minimalist argument. It fits all the facts, not just some of them. It is not very satisfying, but it does fill up an empty space so that the rest of the story can function without interruption. It’s kind of like plain hot oatmeal on a snowy morning: it works, but it isn’t very tasty.
 
Yet when did they perceive that he was a nazgul? Because previously, it was stated in the appendices that it was only until later that this fact was discovered. The wars in the north lasted for some six centuries, how late would this "later" be?

The last prince was burried in 1409, along with many treasures. Could the blades have been put there after his burrial? I personally doubt that, as the mounds were said to have been revered by the dunedain. If I am correct, then this would reduce the period of the making of the rings to some 53 years.

How come it is only a fraction of the dunedain tha are able to produce such formidable weapons against the nazgul? Why aren't the elves capable, the most gifted Children in terms of creative power? Or even the dwarves [who are said to be unmatched in making iron weapons and we also know they are using magic in their craft]?

Tolkien also questioned himself concerning the use of magic by Numenoreans in making swords, since that goes against his statement that:
So, the blades being solely a Cardolan manufacture implies a reversal of craftmanship hierarchies in Middle-Earth. In my opinion, a consistency-solution, for which you admirably argue, is not possible.
 
That’s a very good question. I don’t know when the Dúnedain discovered that the king of Angmar was a Nazgûl, or whether they first realized this or Elrond did, or both together. Perhaps someone has an insight into this?

It is quite possible that the daggers were made following the death of the last Prince of Cardolan in 1409 and put there well after his funerary rites were completed. Remember, the Dúnedain of Cardolan used the barrows as defense works against Angmar, at least once in 1409 and probably on other occasions. It would be reasonable for them to prepare weapons caches in the places they had chosen as refuges and strongholds, as well as food, water, clothing, etc., to withstand a siege. I cannot answer your question with any certainty.

Recall that Bombadil was extremely interested in reports of the Black Riders from Frodo and his companions. He and Goldberry seem personally to have known a woman buried in the tomb, and it was he who selected the daggers and told the hobbits something of their history. The inference I draw from Bombadil’s sketchy information is that all the events leading up to the burial, including the placement of the weapons, were one unbroken chain of events: attack, defeat, and the placement of funerary furnishings and burial; but then there is every reason to believe that this barrow, like many others, could have been used as a stronghold.

My point, from which I have deviated (surprise, surprise!), is that Bombadil seems rarely if ever to have intervened in affairs that did not concern him; but if we could argue that in his view the encroachments of the Witch-king were a matter of his concern, then he might intervene to offset that. It would then be possible that Bombadil was the source of information regarding the Nazgûl and how to defeat them. I do not know how that works into Tolkien’s hints about who and what Tom Bombadil was, and what role he plays in the Tale. (There are so many whacky Bombadil theories I hesitated to post this one; however, Bombadil is so obviously interested in the Black Riders, and because he is the agent by which Tolkien introduces the barrow-blades into the story, it has to be on the menu of things to discuss.)

I don’t know. I do know that Tolkien says on more than one occasion that the barrow-blades were made by the Dúnedain during their wars with Angmar; since he wrote the story, I have no reason within that framework to doubt him.

The Dwarves were not involved in the wars against Angmar except, perhaps, in a preliminary strike by Sauron’s forces against Gundabad. (I think that the Witch-king prepared the way for his centuries-long campaign against Arnor by first seizing control of Mount Gundabad with the orcs. This secured his lines of communication and supply with Dol Guldur by giving him continual access to the Vales of Anduin, and it made his position in Angmar virtually unassailable unless he was attacked simultaneously on both sides of the Misty Mountains. His position was so flexible geographically that a successful attack against Angmar might have required even a northern assault as well: a three-pronged, well-planned, coordinated, and extremely complicated campaign.) Since they were not otherwise involved, I am not certain why the Dwarves would concern themselves with this, although they may have been providing the folk of Arnor weapons and armor.

You are correct that the Elves possessed the greater power in these matters. However, I also hasten to point out that the Númenóreans made Orthanc and the walls of Minas Tirith of some strange material that was all but impervious even to the ravages of several dozen angry ents. The burial site of Elendil, Amon Anwar, was mightily odd as well. As Isaac Asimov observed, and I paraphrase, a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to those who do not understand it. Maybe this idea is behind what Galadriel told Sam: Men “use the same word for [the art of the Elves] and the deceits of the Enemy.”

You did, however, overlook the footnotes to Letter 155, the second of which is flagged after “Lúthien,” the last word in the final paragraph of the letter, and at the end of your citation. The text is on pp 199-200 of Letters, and the footnotes to Letter 155 are on p 445. Footnote 2 reads,
Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written ‘But the Númenóreans used “spells” in making swords?’
Click to expand...
You might also consider whether the swords were not “magical,” but were rather intended to “undo” the necromancy of Sauron in making the Ringwraiths. From that perspective, a clever person might argue that the daggers were “anti-magical.” Tolkien does not seem to address this possibility in his published writings, and it seems to me rather an unnecessary stretch: too clever by half.

Thorondor_ said:
So, the blades being solely a Cardolan manufacture implies a reversal of craftmanship hierarchies in Middle-Earth. In my opinion, a consistency-solution, for which you admirably argue, is not possible.
Click to expand...
I think from the footnote that Tolkien must immediately have been aware of the inconsistency he introduced in this letter. The text of the Tale and the footnote indicate that the barrow-blades remain the work of the Northern Dúnedain, whether of Cardolan or not, or before or after III 1409.

I was going to add the phrase, “as long as it was before III 1636,” to the end of that last sentence until it occurred to me that the daggers could have been put there even after the barrow-wight arrived. Who would do this other than a Nazgûl I do not know, unless the wight was obliging enough to bring into the tomb trinkets left for him to collect, sort of like an overnight deposit box. I like this idea very little: it begs the question why, if the armies of Angmar collected the blades, they did not destroy them; while if the daggers were already in the tomb when the wight arrived, they could excused as having been overlooked: we must after all consider the busy life of a barrow-wight, and the many claims on his time and attention.
 
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I disagree - 'passed away' could either be because of a lack of knowledge on Aragorn's part, or could mean what it means now - that physical form has been lost.

Also, if I remember correctly, in FotR, Aragorn says, "They were men once." Were - Once. He then talks of how their lust for power corrupted them, and now, their fate is tied to the Ring, as is Sauron's.

There's also a quote on page 50 of the Lord of the Rings book (the one with all three of them), wherein Gandalf says, "...Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again. ..."

This means that they once roamed the earth with a physical form. When Sauron was overthrown, their physical forms diminished, and they could not leave his vicinity without being reduced to spirits, if they were indeed still with a form at all. Yet as his power grew, they were either embodied or they grew powerful enough to leave his vicinity.

I would also like to expand on a quote already given, from page 487 of said book, where Gandalf says, "One that you cannot slay with arrows. You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. ..."

This can be seen to indicate their steeds, or their physical presence, yet either way, he refers to it as a shape, and puts it in words that could just as easily be refering to clothing.

I voted Frodo, because since the Riders' fates are attached to the Ring, as they are servants of Sauron, no longer mortal men, for they have not died of age or illness, and have diminished in physical power at least once, although Eowyn or Merry may have destroyed his physical presence, if the Ring were not destroyed, Sauron could easily have brought him back. Or, if Sauron had not been able to bring him back, near-to-soulless as he was, he would not have been allowed to pass to the Halls of Mandos, and would have wondered the earth, formless.

Sidenote to what I was saying:
(However, as I understand the Lore and Mythos behind it, it isn't possible that the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, because in the first book of the Silmarillion, it talks of two incidents of unharmonious song and discord - presumably being the two times that Sauron came to power, and also says that, "And thou, Melkor, will discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory." - Iluvatar, The Silmarillion, page six. Meaning that every conflict created would not tear down Arda and the peoples within it, but make it stronger, hence, due to the predeterminism set forth there, it was impossible that they lose.) Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I wonder if the armor was not at least partially a scare tactic. Which is more frightening in battle - a guy in a black robe, or a guy in black, shiny, pointy armor?
 
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But you see after the Eowyn thrusted her blade into the Lord of the nine,his wails could still be heard.Sauron didn't really die.He is a mair and rhus won't die.He however will probably be sent to the void along with his master and yeah, a finally battle will take place
 
 
I love reading thru these posts they make for both an excellent debate and a treasure trove of info!
The points I'm going to post have probably been brought up already but here goes anyway:
As far as who dealt the death blow...I believe that to have been Eowyn. I agree with the opinion that Merry did weaken the Witch King. And tho it's true that only someone not a man would bring about the Witch King's demise and Merry was NOT a man...I think it's stated pretty specifically about Merry's part in the deed and shows that he did NOT deal the death blow or even close to it. I believe his cut weakened the Witch King certainly. 'No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.' RoTK, The Battle of The Pelennor Fields.
Aragorn speaks of the power of the daggers Merry and Pippin received from Tom Bombadil at the Barrows when he, Legolas, and Gimli were searching about the dead Orcs in Parth Galen for evidence of the Hobbits fate."Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."
As far as the Witch King being mortal at the time of his death, I don't believe that he was. 'Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.' The Silmarillion, The Rings of Power and The Third Age. Also, when the Witch King and Gandalf met I think it showed further that the Leader of the Nine was no longer mortal at the time of his destruction. The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter. RoTK, The Siege of Gondor.
In regards to him being dead, dead....
I believe that Eowyn (with Merry's assistance) ended his ability to take any form of any sort ever again and that it was the destruction of the One Ring that finished off what 'mist' of him remained, yet the finality of him remains a mystery .... a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world. RoTK, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. '....and was never heard again in that age of this world. It leaves it open ended.....that the Witch King maybe could or would return in another age and who knows as what...a servant to another Dark Lord or maybe be a Dark Lord himself
 
A very good post Exma .

However, the Witch King was a Man and there for Mortal. He was Mortal before he was given the Ring and he remained Mortal after. Souron was only a Miar, Not even the most powerful of the Ainur, Melkor and Manwe, could change in any way the Gifts of Eru. It was only Iluvatar himself that could make a true alteration of any of his gifts.

The Witch King was not made immortal but was Bound to the Ring of Power which held his spirit captive and his body also. While it is possible that the Ring would hold him as a powerless wraith even after Eowyn vanquished him on the field of battle. Once the One Ring was destroyed then all the lesser rings lost their powers and became simple ornaments. At that point all the Wraiths would finally die and leave to travel beyond the circles of the world as decreed by the Gift of Eru to Men.
 
I see your point...and you state well your argument, Hir nin
I am afraid tho that we may have to agree to disagree on certain points. I shall post my counter later as sleep draws near and I am already nodding off
 
I Think it's pretty clear that Eowyn destroyed the witch king. I say this because "no man can destroy" him. And she is no man. Granted Merry is not a man either, so in essence he is destroyed by the strength of the meek and of a womans power. Tolkien was all about finding strength in the most unlikely of places, and hope when their wasn't any.
 
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