Why did 🧙Gandalf go white?

[Angelica]

I recently started listening to LOR on CDs and they got to the point where the trio meets Gandalf in white clothes. And then Gandalf describes how he became white.

I understood that he was fighting with that fire-creature and won. But then I didn't get it. DId he die and was reborn? Where did he get the white clothes??

And Sauruman(sp?) also had white clothes - did he do smth noble too?

Thanks!!!

 

[Gandalf The Grey]

Earlier in this thread, someone stated that:

Radagast had no real skills, it seems, except that he was able to converse with animals and probably plants as well.

Something to keep in mind, however, are these words from "The Council of Elrond":

Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.

Gandalf the Grey

 

[Red Istar]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
RED????? You forget Narya!!!!!!!Red can be the colour of the passion,of the new fire which will light the hearts of all good creatures to oppose the evil!!!

Now that I agree with.

Radagast was most defintely not powerless!

 

[Gil-Galad]

Well,I have to agree that Radagast was not powerless,if he was he wouldn't be sent in Middle-earth.But I do think he became powerless with the time,because he chose the wrong way.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Perhaps the colours of the Istari should not be taken that literally.

Saruman is not necessarily greater than the other Istari, or at least Gandalf. He may have been elected as the head of the Istari simply because he was, like Sauron, a Maia of Aulë's people, and has studied ring lore extensively.

The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
...and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.

Unfinished Tales
Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than by his words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise, and was ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels; while secretly he noted and pondered all that he said, setting a watch, so far as he was able, upon all his movements.

Looks like we shouldn't take Saruman as the greatest simply on account of the colour of his robes!

I think the Blue Wizards were meant to journey into the far East from the very beginning. I'd say they were pretty powerful, somewhere up there with Saruman and Gandalf. After all they had to be - the scope of their mission was rather difficult to achieve (prevent Sauron from totally dominating all men of the East).

Also keep in mind, that white is not always indicative of being the greatest. Vilya, the greatest Elven ring, had a BLUE stone, while Nenya had a white one...

 

[Lantarion]

Haha, you're absolutely right Ithryn. But in general, White is held to be the power of Good and Black the power of Evil. There is no simpler way of putting it! SO perhaps when Saruman cast off his White robes, he cast off the last shreds of his kindness and Goodness.
Anyway the way I saw it before all these people smarter than me came up with brighter ideas was this:
In order from most powerful to least.

white --> grey --> blue --> brown

Originally posted by Red Istar
Radagast was most defintely not powerless!

Oh certainly not, I agree. And I had forgotten that quote from the COuncil of Elrond too, thanks GandalftheGrey.
What I actually meant to convey with what I said was that Radagast was portrayed, intentionally, as the weakest of the Istari in strength, which I believe cannot be denied, and I tried to therefore justify Tolkien's use of the colour Brown in connection with him, as something other than the colour of the forest (which I believe is also a very plausible explanation).

 

[Gil-Galad]

The idea about Vilya and Nenya is really impressive.But where would you put Narya then,Ithy?Between them?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Vilya is the most powerful, followed by Nenya and then Narya I think.

Of course I agree with white being the supreme colour of good, as opposed to black being representative of evil, but it's interesting to try and come up with alternative analogies.

If we look at the Three Rings again, we see that Vilya has a blue stone, and this is the greatest of the three. It is also called the Ring of Air, and this is all reminiscent of Manwë, the greatest of the Valar - the sky is blue and perhaps blue is a colour of great importance. Nenya, the Ring of Water, and the second most powerful, is the same colour as water - white, and this is reminiscent of Ulmo, the second greatest Vala. And Narya, the Ring of Fire, the third greatest, reminds us of Aulë, the third greatest Vala.

So just maybe blue has more importance to it than some of you have assumed. I think I'd put the Blue Wizards higher on the scale than where they are on yours, Lanty.

 

[Red Istar]

Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

Ah, but then how did Sauraman imprison Gandalf on top of the Orthanc?

I think we're thinking to hard about the whole color thing, peeps.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Ithyn I do like the idea about the blue colour and the Istari.But if the blue color represented such a big might,why the blue wizards failed?I mean Saruman and Radagast failed too,but they did many things before their fall,while the blue ones did nothing important.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Who says they failed? Tolkien's views on the Blue Wizards are conflicting at best. We know nothing of their actions whatsoever.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Probably we don't know nothing,because they did not nothing imortant and Tolkien did not find a reason to speak about them.The only thing we know is that they porbably started doing tings related with occultism.I don't have the book next to me right now (UT) and I cannot provide the quote,but I do remember this passage in the book.

 

[Gandalf The Grey]

The only related quotes I'm coming across in Unfinished Tales right now are these two:

Of the Blue little was known in the West ... for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle Earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it.

It might be (though this is the merest guess) that Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there.

I seem to remember another quote taking a different view in which the Blue Wizards kept the situation in the East from becoming worse than it was ... is anyone else of like memory and can find this other quote?

Gandalf the Grey

 

[Ithrynluin]

The History of Middle Earth XII: The Peoples of Middle Earth
But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East...who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

 

[Gil-Galad]

I think this quote clarifies the importance of the blue wizards.Thank you Ithy,you are awlays here when we need you help!!