Why didn't 🧙Gandalf lead Aragorn to Minas Tirith in the first place?

[BlackCaptain]

Gandalf knew and was allies with Aragorn before the Lord of the Rings took place, was he not? For 45 years Gandalf knew Aragorn, and therefore would probably know his lineage and importance.

With that being established, why do you think Gandalf didn't influence Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and bring hope to the people? Surely Gandalf would want Minas Tirith to become strengthend in any way possible... Do you think Gandalf was trying to save Aragorn for a occasion where he would be more needed? Do you think Gandalf could foresee Frodo going on this quest 45 years before he had any reasonable inkling that Bilbo posesed the One Ring? By reasonable inkling I mean seeing the hold that the trinket had on Bilbo, and reading the Scrolls of Isildur.

 

[Inderjit S]

Aragorn did go to Minas Tirith as Thorngil, but his time wasn't at hand yet.

 

[Eriol]

Those guys took their prophecies seriously. That Blade Reforged and Isildur's Bane thing was very important.

And, of course, Denethor would not have enjoyed it if Gandalf had done it, and Gandalf knew that.

 

[Thorondor_]

Futhermore, the enemies of Sauron weren't united enough, nor did they realise the threat of Sauron and of the one ring.

In this case, should Sauron have attacked Gondor, not that much would have stayed in his way.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Gandalf knew and was allies with Aragorn before the Lord of the Rings took place, was he not? For 45 years Gandalf knew Aragorn, and therefore would probably know his lineage and importance.

With that being established, why do you think Gandalf didn't influence Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and bring hope to the people? Surely Gandalf would want Minas Tirith to become strengthend in any way possible... Do you think Gandalf was trying to save Aragorn for a occasion where he would be more needed? Do you think Gandalf could foresee Frodo going on this quest 45 years before he had any reasonable inkling that Bilbo posesed the One Ring? By reasonable inkling I mean seeing the hold that the trinket had on Bilbo, and reading the Scrolls of Isildur.

I think Aragorn would have refused, had Gandalf entreated him to go to Minas Tirith when they first met, or in the early years of their acquaintance. Aragorn was Isildur's heir, but he was also Chieftain of the Rangers. Remember Aragorn's exchange with Boromir at the Council of Elrond: I think he would have considered the peace and security of his ancestral lands in the North his first duty. (I also suspect that the Chieftains before him were of similar opinion--hence none AFAIK went to Gondor to claim the Kingship).

Sauron had already re-established himself in Mordor by the time Gandalf and Aragorn first met. Even so, things didn't really begin to heat up until 3017--when Gandalf finally uncovered the truth about Frodo's ring--and then June of the following year, when Sauron attacked Osgiliath. The knowledge that Sauron's long-lost Ring had been discovered would have overridden Aragorn's sense of duty towards the peace of the North.

 

[Inderjit S]

Aragorn also didn't have the authority-remember when he was accepted as king he had saved Minas Tirith and Denethor and Boromir were dead-they were the main obstacles to him becoming king, especially Denethor, and if he contested the kingship early then it could have caused a civil war as some sided with the steward and some with the heir of Isildur. He needed a good reason to contest his kingship! Besides, he was needed in the north.

 

[Thorondor_]

Aragorn also didn't have the authority-remember when he was accepted as king he had saved Minas Tirith and Denethor and Boromir were dead-they were the main obstacles to him becoming king, especially Denethor, and if he contested the kingship early then it could have caused a civil war as some sided with the steward and some with the heir of Isildur. He needed a good reason to contest his kingship! Besides, he was needed in the north.

I wouldn't agree with that. If Sauron was defeated without Aragorn having a visible role, then you think that the Aragorn, of for that reason, even his followers, should have waited indefinetely for the steward line to end? I believe that he didn't expose himself early on as the king of Gondor because Sauron would have wiped out Gondor, almost at any cost (as he tried, when he did find out).

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

I wouldn't agree with that. If Sauron was defeated without Aragorn having a visible role, then you think that the Aragorn, of for that reason, even his followers, should have waited indefinetely for the steward line to end? I believe that he didn't expose himself early on as the king of Gondor because Sauron would have wiped out Gondor, almost at any cost (as he tried, when he did find out).

Well, he tried when he found out (about Aragorn's identity) because at that point he knew that the Ring had been discovered--and the thing he feared most was its falling into the hands of a figure as powerful as a Dunedain king. But I think you're on the right track--had Aragorn claimed the kingship much earlier, it still would have given Sauron pause.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

"Why didn't Gandalf lead Aragorn to Minas Tirith in the first place?"

By that kind of question we may very well ask, Why didn't Frodo hop an eagle in the first place, fly the one ring to Mt. Doom, drop it in and have done with it all?

Because Tolkien didn't write it that way! One also might ask, Why didn't Beethoven write a different opening for his 5th Symphony? Sheesh!

Barley

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

"Why didn't Gandalf lead Aragorn to Minas Tirith in the first place?"

By that kind of question we may very well ask, Why didn't Frodo hop an eagle in the first place, fly the one ring to Mt. Doom, drop it in and have done with it all?

Because Tolkien didn't write it that way! One also might ask, Why didn't Beethoven write a different opening for his 5th Symphony? Sheesh!

Barley

You're no fun.

 

[Inderjit S]

I wouldn't agree with that. If Sauron was defeated without Aragorn having a visible role, then you think that the Aragorn, of for that reason, even his followers, should have waited indefinetely for the steward line to end? I believe that he didn't expose himself early on as the king of Gondor because Sauron would have wiped out Gondor, almost at any cost (as he tried, when he did find out).

I don't think so. If Gondor had defeated Sauron without Aragorn then the rule of the stewards would have been further legitimized-they were, after all the leaders who helped defeat Sauron. Aragorn may have had a claim, he may have had many followers, but there still would have been a schism in Gondor. There had been other heirs of Elendil before Aragorn, one had contested the kingship and lost, there had been a civil war in Gondor because of an 'outsider' claiming the kingship. Politics are politics after all, and Gondor would have been divided between the king the steward-that was the main point. Sauron finding out about the heir of Elendil was important, I am not contesting that, but it would have been a spanner in the works of Sauron's plan-which were ripening. Sauron launched a premature attack on Gondor because he was going to attack Gondor anyway.

 

[Thorondor_]

By that kind of question we may very well ask, Why didn't Frodo hop an eagle in the first place, fly the one ring to Mt. Doom, drop it in and have done with it all?

Frodo didn't hopped on an eagle and flew to Mount Doom because eagles were afraid even of shepperds with bows, let alone the most formidable fortress of that time.

(Sauron) feared most was its falling into the hands of a figure as powerful as a Dunedain king

I don't think Sauron feared any man taking hold of the ring, that man would soon become enslaved by it - even a maia like Gandalf would. The ring's problem only solution is its destruction, not its weilding.

There had been other heirs of Elendil before Aragorn, one had contested the kingship and lost, there had been a civil war in Gondor because of an 'outsider' claiming the kingship.

The bottom line for getting the leadership of Gondor was that the Council of Gondor dictated that the ruler must be ruled by an heir of Anarion, but Aragorn was succesor to both Isildur and Anarion (being related to Firiel and Arvedui). So your argument is faulty.

Sauron launched a premature attack on Gondor because he was going to attack Gondor anyway.

Who knows when and if Sauron would have attacked? Perhaps he would have tricked Denethor, so an armed fight for Gondor might not even be in his plans. I think he attacked Gondor because he saw the danger of Aragorn leading Gondor.

 

[Inderjit S]

The bottom line for getting the leadership of Gondor was that the Council of Gondor dictated that the ruler must be ruled by an heir of Anarion, but Aragorn was succesor to both Isildur and Anarion (being related to Firiel and Arvedui). So your argument is faulty

No, that was the reason the council gave, as I said politics is politics-just because they gave a reason doesn't mean that was the reason for the rejection. They refused Arvedui because of three other reasons 1.the steward held considerable sway 2. the female line of kingship was not given less legitimacy than before and 3. (this one supports your line of view) that there were other heirs alive at the time, one of them a war hero.

If being the legitimate heir to Isildur and Anarion was the main thing then why was Arvedui's claim rejected? His children would be direct descendants of both Anarion and Isildur, therefore in the long-term he had the more legitimate claim. The Council knew this too, but denied to comment on it.

Fast forward to the time of the War of The Rings. The Stewards as the representatives of the king held a great deal of power. They were basically kings, except in name. Denethor and his sons were held in great reverence and they had a huge power base. The Gondorians still wanted a king of course, but you must keep in mind the pride of the House of Stewards, and more importantly Denethor and Boromir and I guess by that logic Faramir too.

Aragorn could not march into Minas Tirith and proclaim that he was the king returned. That would not be a sensible move. Some may have supported his claim. Some would have rejected it-it is called human nature. The resulting schism would have divided Gondor-why else do you think Gandalf told Pippin not to tell Denethor anything about Aragorn? Why did he worry that there would be a contest of power between Boromir and Aragorn if Boromir had survived and they had gone to war together? Would the soldiers listen to their revered captain or the heir of Isildur? Why was Faramir sceptical when Frodo told him about the return of the heir? If Denethor proposed one thing and Aragorn another who would the citizens obey?

If Aragorn simply marched into Minas Tirith and said "I am the king-let me lead you" then I somehow doubt the people of Gondor would have obeyed and I find it even more doubtful that Denethor would have given up his authority, or that Aragorn's claim would have been wholly supported.

Who knows when and if Sauron would have attacked? Perhaps he would have tricked Denethor, so an armed fight for Gondor might not even be in his plans. I think he attacked Gondor because he saw the danger of Aragorn leading Gondor.

No. Minas Morgul has been summoning its strength for some time for an assault on Minas Tirith. They weren't there for a party. Sauron merely told the Witch King to speed up his attack-he didn't suddenly tell him to attack Minas Tirith-that attack was already a part of his plans. The evidence is everywhere in the books. And how would he have tricked Gondor? Would he send for his allies’ forces and gear himself up for war just to trick someone?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

You're no fun.

Barley

 

[OldTomBombadil]

Frodo didn't hopped on an eagle and flew to Mount Doom because eagles were afraid even of shepperds with bows, let alone the most formidable fortress of that time.

I believe you're referring to this passage in The Hobbit:

The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. 'They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,' he said, 'for they would think that we were after their sheep.'

While this is a side issue we best not get bogged down on, this is one very good argument against the Eagles taking the Ringbearer to Mount Doom. Certainly the Nazgûl would see the Eagles coming, and are much more formidable then men with bows of yew. And yes, as Barley points out, it wouldn't leave much story if they had.

I don't think Sauron feared any man taking hold of the ring, that man would soon become enslaved by it - even a maia like Gandalf would. The ring's problem only solution is its destruction, not its weilding.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, because it runs contrary to all that is said or implied in The Lord of the Rings:

'Now Sauron knows all this, and he knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore now he is in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?'

This was their purpose in riding to the Black Gate. They wanted Sauron to think that Aragorn had taken the Ring for himself to challenge the Dark Lord, and thus draw his attention away from the task of the Ringbearer.

I'm pretty certain that Sauron believed that due to the seductive power of the Ring no man would want to or be capable of destroying the Ring. Didn't Frodo faulter at the very brink of destroying it? It was only through Gollum's intervention the Ring was destroyed, and even then it was an accident.

Finally, logic alone should tell you that if Sauron truly believed the West's only hope to defeat him was to destroy the Ring, he would have fortified Mount Doom with troops to prevent it.


While it seems like a simple answer, I also believe that the Aragorn had not staked his claim to the throne of Gondor because the time was not yet right.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander all lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

I believe Aragorn's wandering was educational. The knowledge he gained and wisdom he acquired would serve him well as king.

 

[Thorondor_]

I'm pretty certain that Sauron believed that due to the seductive power of the Ring no man would want to or be capable of destroying the Ring. Didn't Frodo faulter at the very brink of destroying it? It was only through Gollum's intervention the Ring was destroyed, and even then it was an accident.
Finally, logic alone should tell you that if Sauron truly believed the West's only hope to defeat him was to destroy the Ring, he would have fortified Mount Doom with troops to prevent it.

What I meant was that the Valar and Eru wanted humans to solve this problem on their own and that the solution to this problem was the destruction. I wasn't talking from "Sauron's point of view".
About Faramir, I doubt he was of the same kind as Denethor and Boromir - Tolkien describes him otherwise. Also, the stewards swear allegiance to the king; in my opinion, if Sauron wasn't that close to Gondor, Aragorn would have taken the time and effort to become the king.
Well, about tricking Denethor, remember that the steward was already under Sauron's influence through the palantir - my theory still holds water Remember that Sauron (and Morgoth for that matter) would first work through treason and then through war. There is no valid reason to believe that Denethor wouldn't have burned the gates of Gondor, if despair or other Sauron-induced thoughts would have reached him (he put himself and his living son in fire!!).

 

[Inderjit S]

About Faramir, I doubt he was of the same kind as Denethor and Boromir - Tolkien describes him otherwise. Also, the stewards swear allegiance to the king; in my opinion, if Sauron wasn't that close to Gondor, Aragorn would have taken the time and effort to become the king.
Well, about tricking Denethor, remember that the steward was already under Sauron's influence through the palantir - my theory still holds water Remember that Sauron (and Morgoth for that matter) would first work through treason and then through war. There is no valid reason to believe that Denethor wouldn't have burned the gates of Gondor, if despair or other Sauron-induced thoughts would have reached him (he put himself and his living son in fire!!).

Not really. If Sauron was going to go after the heir of Isildur then he would have went after him, via war, regardless of distance. Mordor was not his only powerbase. Your reasoning is misleading because you neglect politics, you cannot base your assertion on _one_ point, there were other factors than the geographical position of Gondor-Aragorn had other considerations. Besides there were many heirs of Elendil before Aragorn who could have claimed the kingship but didn't-he had no more a legitimate claim than any of them.

Sauron was only able to break Denethor after he thought the case was hopeless (ring in Mordor) and his line was ended and also Sauron's armies-I would go mad too! So we can see that there were several reasons for Denethor's madness-he was no servant, he was a Númenórean, he was probably the greatest man of his age besides Aragorn. Sauron could break him, but Sauron only broke him after Denethor naturally thought all was lost. Denethor had been gearing up for battle for much if his life, that is to say he had been sleeping in a coat-of-armour and let his sons do the killing, as all good leaders do. There is a good reason as to why he wouldn't burn down the gates of Minas Tirith. First of all burning down the gates of Minas Tirith would only be of help to Sauron if Sauron sent a army to besiege it, so you kind of contradict yourself in that Sauron would have to send an army to attack Gondor. Also there is a good reason as to why he wouldn't burn the gates of Minas Tirith-because the people of Minas Tirith weren't stupid and they wouldn't allow him to do so, or follow his orders if he told them to. He would have been considered mad.

 

[Thorondor_]

Not really. If Sauron was going to go after the heir of Isildur then he would have went after him, via war, regardless of distance. Mordor was not his only powerbase.

I knew he would go to war no matter the distance, the thing is this way Aragorn would have had the time to become king, and face Sauron's army as such.

Besides there were many heirs of Elendil before Aragorn who could have claimed the kingship but didn't-he had no more a legitimate claim than any of them.

Now, we are going in circles here. I've said already three times that he didn't already become king because, if he would, Sauron would have atacked Gondor in full might, and Gondor wouldn't have rallied all its allies, as it did in the end.

Sauron was only able to break Denethor after he thought the case was hopeless (ring in Mordor) and his line was ended and also Sauron's armies-I would go mad too!

I don't pretty much understand what you are saying.

So we can see that there were several reasons for Denethor's madness-he was no servant, he was a Númenórean, he was probably the greatest man of his age besides Aragorn. Sauron could break him, but Sauron only broke him after Denethor naturally thought all was lost.

Denethor thought everything was lost because he was seeing things through Sauron's eyes, the palantir corrupted him, and "natural" despair combined with the palantir led him to maddness. The palantir influenced even Saruman into thinking the way Sauron wanted.

burning down the gates of Minas Tirith would only be of help to Sauron if Sauron sent a army to besiege it, so you kind of contradict yourself in that Sauron would have to send an army to attack Gondor.

Not an army to attack, but an army to take over an already would-be lost city. And you are taking my words too literally, it doesnt require to "burn down the gates" actually, there are myriads way where inside "help" can lead to the loss of Gondor.

Also there is a good reason as to why he wouldn't burn the gates of Minas Tirith-because the people of Minas Tirith weren't stupid and they wouldn't allow him to do so, or follow his orders if he told them to. He would have been considered mad.

Then how the heck did they let him burn himself and his living son?? Not let him, Help him do it. If the guards were so loyal to him as you said so, they would follow him.

 

[Inderjit S]

I knew he would go to war no matter the distance; the thing is this way Aragorn would have had the time to become king, and face Sauron's army as such.

If Sauron couldn't be beaten by arms (as Elrond and Gandalf concede) then how much difference does a few hundred miles make? If Aragorn ruled from Minas Tirith, Rohan or Arnor then it would have made little difference-Sauron's armed might would have overcome him.

Read the part on Denethor in the appendix-he would not have submitted to Aragorn and there would have been a power struggle, or schism.

Now, we are going in circles here. I've said already three times that he didn't already become king because, if he would, Sauron would have attacked Gondor in full might, and Gondor wouldn't have rallied all its allies, as it did in the end.

I know you have said it three times, that is not what I am contesting, I am contesting your argument. Aragorn of course didn't become king because of the threat of Sauron but he also didn't become king because of the politics of Gondor and the difficulty in assuming kingship. If it was that easy to become king then his forefathers would have contested it. Your position makes no sense because you discard all other factors in the favour of one when it is obvious that there wasn't just one factor in the matter.

Denethor thought everything was lost because he was seeing things through Sauron's eyes, the palantir corrupted him, and "natural" despair combined with the palantir led him to maddness. The palantir influenced even Saruman into thinking the way Sauron wanted.

Read the passage which describes Denethor's demise. He only submitted after 1. he found out the ring had been sent to Mordor 2. he had seen Sauron's armies and so he realised they had no chance to succeed as the ring (the only weapon they could use) was lost and he was far too strong too fight and finally he only broke after his Boromir died and finally when he sent his son Faramir to his death-that is when he broke, that is how it is described in the books. He is swayed by the palantir but only after he gives up all hope-his lack of hope causes him to do so-he had been battling Sauron via the palantir for many years, he had seen Sauron's armed might-but it was only after he himself broke that Sauron was able to break him. Saruman and Denethor wanted different things. Denethor wanted to defeat Sauron, Saruman wanted to ally himself with him or get the ring, Saruman was happy with being Sauron's vassal though-getting the ring was of course a bonus and a bonus which he pursued but when he was ensnared by Sauron he was seeking a alliance whilst Denethor was seeking to fight him.

Then how the heck did they let him burn himself and his living son?? Not let him, Help him do it. If the guards were so loyal to him as you said so, they would follow him.

That is pretty glib reasoning. First of all his guards fled him when they realised he was mad. It was his closest servants who aided him, and even then reluctantly, not everybody in Gondor was a closer servant of his, nor would they have listened to him if he had gone mad and told them to do something to the detriment of Gondor. They were not fools to obey the commands of a madman. "Others may contest your will, when it is turned to madness and evil."

 

[Thorondor_]

Ok, here are some points we agree (I assume you agree with what you haven't challenged)

1. we are only speculating, no one knows for sure what Aragorn would have done of the voyage to Mordor didn't occur;

2. Aragorn did have obligations in the north;

3. Accessing the throne of Gondor was at least problematic

4. Aragorn becoming king of Gondor at any time in the story would have triggered an immediate attack from Sauron.

Are you contesting the following:
1. the palantirs were under Sauron's influence
2. this influence was not only on the information level; through the palantir, Sauron can induce all sort of states of mind
3. under such influence, one would do things which would help Sauron's plans
4. if sauron's armies were waaay further than they actually were, Aragorn would have had the time to challenge the throne.
5. with the help of Gandalf, he would have succeeded; if you don't agree with this one in particular, how and when do you think Aragorn or his heirs would have become king if Sauron wasn't defeated in their lifetime? I would be very interested in your reply on this matter in particular.