Why didn't the 🧙Istari fight with 👁️Sauron?

Úlairi · Apr 21, 2002

As far as I know only Grond and I have read them.

Grond · Apr 21, 2002

Ulari, Lost Tales 1 and 2 were hard reads for me because the Mythology was so different from what I was used to in the other works. I found the Peoples of Middle-earth, The War of the Jewels going backwards allowed me to adjust to the different setings more easily.

Mormegil · Apr 21, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
Ulari, Lost Tales 1 and 2 were hard reads for me because the Mythology was so different from what I was used to in the other works. I found the Peoples of Middle-earth, The War of the Jewels going backwards allowed me to adjust to the different setings more easily.

I completely agree with this. I have read HoME, and the easiest of them to read was definately PoME. Because It deals primarily with LOTR and its appendices. It also prepares you for the different style that HoME is written in.
The first HoME book I bought was #1 The Book of Lost Tales, but after about 5 pages I couldn't read any more. It is quite tiresome to read as it is completely different from anything else Tolkien wrote.
So, I bought PoME and I loved it. Then I read volumes 6,7,8 & 9, the ones concerning LOTR. Then I read the others before going back to Volumes 1 & 2.

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Hmmmm, perhaps I should have done that Grond, it may have been easier!

Bucky · Apr 24, 2002

Yeah, Lost Tales lost me about 5 pages in too.

So, I quit there.

Maybe I'll check out #12.......

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

I'm still trying to get myself a copy of The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien, but I cannot find one anywhere!

Bucky · Apr 24, 2002

I got my copy by borrowing it from somebody like Hugo Bracegirdle used to do.

I think it was Hugo who got the empty bookcase from Bilbo.......

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Good one Bucky. Yes, I think I can relate to Hugo and perhaps I should follow his example! LOL!

Grond · Apr 24, 2002

Ulari, if you shop in the U. S., you can buy The Letters of J. R. R. T. here. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4464414-5259310

If you shop in the U. K., you can buy The Letters of J. R. R. T. here. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/026-0188661-6431664

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Thankyou kindly for the links Grond! But I live in Australia, the land down-under!

Beleg Strongbow · Apr 25, 2002

Yes there isn't as much stuff in Australia.

Grond · Apr 26, 2002

Originally posted by Ulairi
Thankyou kindly for the links Grond! But I live in Australia, the land down-under!

If you have a mailing address and can get your mom's credit card, she can order the books for you from either source. They ship internationally as I get all my Tolkien books from the U. K. instead of the U. S. (where I live) so they'll be more authentic. I have found over past years that Houghton-Mifflin doesn't pay the same attention to detail that Allen-Unwin (now merged with Harper-Collins) does.

Úlairi · Apr 26, 2002

Yes, but unforuantely my mother doesn't use credit cards very often, I believe that she may be somewhat afraid of 'plastic money'.

Lantarion · Apr 26, 2002

Re: Re: Istari and Maiar

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
No. Gandalf for starters wasn't allowed to fight him. The Istari weren't allowed to do it. Gandalf wasn't dstrong or powerful enough to fight Sauron. The only thing he could beat him in was being wise. Sauron would have destroyed Gandalf. Sauron along with Eonwe, Osse are the strongest of the maia. The only people that could fight sauron and win would be Eonwe and Osse and the vala. Mayb some special elves like Fingolfin and some menm like Turin. But he was a lot stronger and as Gandalf said he doesn't think he was ready or if he ever would be to confront Sauron in the palantir. The Istari weren't allowed by the vala to work in that way they couldbn't dominate others. He beat sauron with his mind. He was wiser then him and thats what brought his downfall.

I think when he was resurrected in greater power and stronger form Gandalf was powerful enough to oppose Sauron, but as has already been said he was not allowed to (and I don't think he would have anyway - it wasn't just his battle to fight, but that of all the inhabitants of Middle-Earth).

Úlairi · Apr 26, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Istari and Maiar

Originally posted by Pontifex

I think when he was resurrected in greater power and stronger form Gandalf was powerful enough to oppose Sauron, but as has already been said he was not allowed to (and I don't think he would have anyway - it wasn't just his battle to fight, but that of all the inhabitants of Middle-Earth).

Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White, it doesn't matter. Gandalf the White said this to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas when they found him:

"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'"

Not enough evidence for you Pontifex? Well, Gandalf the White says again on the same page:

"'I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.'"

Gandalf admits twice that Sauron is more powerful than him. If you still do not think that that is enough evidence then here is a quote from UT:

"Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron."

Even as Olorin (Gandalf in his most powerful form), Gandalf was afraid of Sauron and admitted he was too weak to stand up to him.

Well, there you have it Pontifex, in black and white, as plain as the nose on your face. Neither Olorin, Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White could face the power and might of Sauron.

Sengir Buendia · Jan 26, 2004

Come on!

Come on!!
Sure he could! Hadn't a man done it? People here seem to conjecture inexistent confrontations and judge the winner by their hierarchy of "power". This doesn't exist. So Bombadil would defeat Saruman in battle bacause he was a higher Ainu and Saruman was the 2º most powerful Maia? Also, this theory shows its lack of sense when one faces the "battle" between Witch King and Merry/Eowyn. What could the mighty king do if he was stabbed from behind? What could Sauron do if he could never expect that sudden strike of Anduril (?), besides he was blind in hate to care for his defense at the moment...

What I mean is that this hierarchy can't be taken as a predictor of who's the winner. It depends 100% on the circumstances of the confront (ah! what about Saruman and Wormtongue? A Maia slayed by a scumbag). So, Gandalf could have defeated Sauron if they met in battle or elsewhere, just as Gollum or Frodo could (didn't they, after all?)

Arvedui · Jan 27, 2004

Exept for one thing: The Istari were not supposed to confront Sauron directly. Their task was to help the free Peoples of Middle-earth, or to be more specific: Men to overcome Sauron by themselves.

This because the time of Elves were ending, the Ainur were withdrawing from Earth, and Men were about to take over the rule on Earth as Eru had designed. To be able to rule with confidence, it was important that they had accomplished something really worthwhile first, thus enabling them to believe that they were in fact able to take care of whatever might come, without always having to rely on the Ainur to help them out. And what better feat could accomplish this, that to bring about the destruction of the greatest possible evil?

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Flammifer · Jan 28, 2004

You are, of course, right Arvedui! Indeed you've summed up Eru's intention for the Dominion of Men outstandingly! But it seems that this thread has strayed from the original question of "why didn't Gandalf take on Sauron?" to the question of "could Gandalf take on Sauron and succeed?".

Why didn't the 🧙Istari fight with 👁️Sauron?

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Grond

Morgoth's Mace

Mormegil

Exceptionally Superfluous

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Bucky

Active Member

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Bucky

Active Member

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Grond

Morgoth's Mace

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Beleg Strongbow

Superior Elf

Grond

Morgoth's Mace

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Lantarion

no house

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness

Sengir Buendia

Baron of Macondo

Arvedui

Stargazer

Flammifer

Dagnir-en-Ancalagon

Share this page

Similar threads

Why didn't the 🧙Istari fight with 👁️Sauron?

Crying in the Wilderness

Morgoth's Mace

Exceptionally Superfluous

Crying in the Wilderness

Active Member

Crying in the Wilderness

Active Member

Crying in the Wilderness

Morgoth's Mace

Crying in the Wilderness

Superior Elf

Morgoth's Mace

Crying in the Wilderness

no house

Crying in the Wilderness

Baron of Macondo

Stargazer

Dagnir-en-Ancalagon

Share this page

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency