Why don't the Valar send someone more powerful to defeat 👁️Sauron?

[Elassar]

I know the Valar send a select group of Maiar to sail to middle earth to aid the free people's in the overthrow of Sauron. However, surely there are more powerful beings than the wizards at the disposal of the Valar that could have defeated the lord of the rings much faster, much easier and with much less casualties in doing so. There are many instances where Sauron has been overpowered, so why didn't Manwe send someone who could beat Sauron one on one by using sheer force? For example Eonwe would see to Sauron in battle effortlessly and the War of the ring would be shortened dramatically.

I know the argument about the forces at Sauron's command hindering the advance of the mighty being, such as Eonwe, on Sauron, but without the Istari that could be helped too. As without the interference of Saruman, the Rohirrim would be considerably stronger and the tower of orthanc would still lie under their control enabling them to build even more of a millartary force. For Gondor, their rise of power without Gandalf would not have been the same and the grey pilgrim would be, admittedly, a huge loss in the fight against Mordor.

The Other 3 Wizards are of much less importance to the war of the ring as the blue Wizards are never seen again after journey to the South-East and Rhadagast cares for animals more than people so the loss of there impact wouldn't be severe at all.

In my opinion the loss of Sarumans evil accounts for the loss of the greatness Gandalf and the addition of a mighty Maiar to save middle Earth means an end to all the free people's suffering comes to an end much sooner - However there is almost certainly something I have overlooked and I am interested to see other views on the subject. Thank you.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Because they wanted all free creatures on Middle Earth to earn their freedom, and not to be like a flock of sheep's that needs to be saved over and over again.
For the same reason, Istari's mission is to advice, not to interfere so much,

I mean.. what is the purpose of life if you being saved from God for every single peril you encounter, and you don't even have to lift a finger?
Why would Iluvatar gave brains to any of the free people, if he wanted flock of lobotomized creatures?

 

[Elassar]

He could have given them their minds to thrive in peace, not in War. As if he created a species bred specifically for warfare then he would have been no better than Melkor creating the orcs only to bring death and destruction. For if there purpose is to fight - who will they fight when there is no enemy? What will they do in a time of peace? They would make enemies of eachother and fight on. As a race bred for war knows only destruction. They would turn on eachother like the orcs of Mordor do, but they do not and the brains that eru gave them prevent that. The free people of Iluvitar fight because they have to - not because they want to - that i

Why would Iluvatar gave brains to any of the free people, if he wanted flock of lobotomized creatures?

 

[d4rk3lf]

I didn't said he created them for wars.
He created them as a free beings, and being free beings means responsibility.
Free means - absolutely free.
Free to even serve Sauron or Melkor, free to even not believe in Iluvatar existance.

If Valar intervened (like sending Tulkas to destroy Sauron), they would broke that freedom, and that is another reason why they didn't do it (apart from reason that free people needs to learn to fend themselves).
After all, Valar already did that with Melkor, and still, free people of middle earth needed to engage, they were not sitting on the sides.
Melkor was too strong of a foe for a free people, Sauron was not.

 

[Elassar]

But are they free if Sauron is oppressing them and taking there free will away. Sauron is trying to give them the exact opposite of what the Valar will. Sauron sees free will as chaos, so without free will comes order - which is what he wants most. So is doing nothing while someone takes away the thing they want to protect (free will) really helping anyone. Yes the people are free to fall under the oppression of Sauron but I don't think that's what they would want.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Well, at this point I'd rather hear other's opinion on the matter too, because everything I would say would be just repeating my thoughts.
I think I said pretty clearly what my opinion is, now let's hear some others.

Anyway - it a good question bro.

 

[Ent]

Sauron is oppressing them and taking there free will away.

We do need to grasp this part fully.
All people in 'our real world' have free will, and only 'bow the knee' to the oppressor by choice. Most often, because to refuse, is to die. That's how dictators and tyrants thrive. Oppression is a powerful thing.

But in Sauron's case, it is to be remembered at the last battle once he took his mind off his massive armies and looked toward Mount Doom, the people were completely without guidance any more. So Sauron's control was far greater (at times) than just 'oppression.'

Even after he removed his mental control however, some surrendered and some still chose to fight of their own free will - while many (most?) of the others ran away, particularly the Orcs, going back into their mountains.

But it's clear somewhere in the writing, Eru's purpose for the Maiar was to provide counsel and guidance only, aiding the free peoples of the earth in their fight.

Remember... Providence is in play. Eru "knows the end from the beginning", and told Morgoth (earlier, before he got the new name), he would see there was NOTHING able to be contrived and put into the Music Eru did not know about, and ultimately turned to his purposes, so the end was better than the beginning at the last.

Eru made no 'mistake' sending who he did. It was planned and prepared for from the beginning, and all along, and done to achieve his 'best purposes for all.'

Even the rest of the Maiar gained in the end, just as they did with Melkor, realizing the worst the enemy can do between now and the end, is not sufficient to change or stop Eru's plans.

It's called "People, where do you want to put your faith?"

Melkor was the "greatest" of the Valar overall (though not in some specific parts). He put his faith in himself, and he failed.
Sauron, who first put his faith in Melkor, then after Melkor's demise in himself as well, was the greatest of the Maiar, especially after making the ring.

The whole situation (according to inductive reasoning) was set so the best result for all would be achieved. The highest of the Valar and the highest of the Maiar were incapable of disrupting Eru and his plan.

Oh, evil is not gone yet... but once again, the people of Middle-earth, and the observers of the unfolding play, have hope, and see there is something greater than what they think is "the worst ever." And, they have 'things to do' into the bargain. (This refers to a comment above, where someone says Eru didn't want mindless dolts running to him every time they had a need... my language, not the other posters.)

This is part of why, right at the end of the battle, Sauron's shadow raises up, and he 'stretches his hand out toward them' - but then is blown away in a puff of wind. Shapeless, formless, without power.

What a picture that gives to all who observe the event. What hope that brings...and hopefully inspires in some of those who still willingly want to fight. (Though we don't see any evidence of its impact, but we do not know how each individual responds to it.)

Oh no... there are purposes for what Eru does and why, well beyond the normal lines of thinking.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

Clashes between beings of great power tended to wreak havoc on the land. The end result of the War of Wrath, where Valar and Maiar came to fight against Morgoth, was the destruction and sinking of Beleriand.

If things could have been resolved in a less destructive manner, I'm sure the Valar would have done this instead. Sauron was a different type of threat than Morgoth, so here it was possible for the victory to be achieved in a more 'subtle' manner.

 

[Deimos]

But are they free if Sauron is oppressing them and taking there free will away. Sauron is trying to give them the exact opposite of what the Valar will. Sauron sees free will as chaos, so without free will comes order - which is what he wants most. So is doing nothing while someone takes away the thing they want to protect (free will) really helping anyone. Yes the people are free to fall under the oppression of Sauron but I don't think that's what they would want.

Oppressing someone, restricting him, imprisoning him,all of which impinge upon his liberty to move and act freely, (unhindered) is decidedly not the same thing as taking away his free will.
Free will is an interior capability by which a person (Vala, Maia, elf, man or dwarf) determines the course of his thoughts and decisions, which motives shall prevail within his mind, and form his morals and character.
Unless Sauron replaced people's brains (and to my knowledge he didn't), they never lost their free will.

 

[Olorgando]

Unless Sauron replaced people's brains (and to my knowledge he didn't), they never lost their free will.

Objection.
Exhibit 1: The Nazgûl. Sauron had brought them under his control so completely that he could take their rings away from them and still completely dominate them.
Exhibit 2: When Sauron put on his One Ring the first Time, the bearers of the Three Great Elven Rings immediately took theirs off, as they perceived that the same thing would happen to them as happened to the Nazgûl.
Exhibit 3: When Sauron noticed Frodo at the Cracks of Doom when the latter put on the One Ring, From chapter III of Book Six in RotK, p. 957:
"From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free, and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired."
Exhibit 4: Maeglin et. al. Morgoth was able to daunt them to a degree that they were unable to act against his will.
Exhibit 5: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli chasing the Uruk-hai, from chapter II of Book Four in TT, p. 430:
"There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint, and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb."
"Truly!" said Legolas. "That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us." ...
"Saruman!", muttered Aragorn.

Time and time again JRRT describes situations where the "evil angels" are able to use their hugely superior capabilities to render lesser beings practically without will, at huge distances (seems the inverse square law say of gravity does not apply here, at least not nearly fully), or at least impede the wills even of the strong-willed such as Aragorn. He manages to continue against Saruman's efforts, later even (if just barely) manages to wrench control of the Orthanc Stone from Sauron - at a very great distance.

To claim free will for those crushed by forces utterly beyond their capabilities to resist is simply a very bad joke. To let such forces run free on Middle-earth is the blackest mark against the Valar - of for that matter Eru. Considering the huge slaughter he allowed to happen throughout the ages, one wonders if he is a fan of things like bullfighting, or the Roman Circus.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Lol.. and there I thought that I would agreed on everything our friend Olorgando write.
Apparently not.

Time and time again JRRT describes situations where the "evil angels" are able to use their hugely superior capabilities to render lesser beings practically without will,

No bro, imho.
Look.. you gave nice examples, but I think you forget to draw a very important line.
There is a line before you choose, and after you choose.
The way I see it (I will use some theology conclusions that I've learned, because I think they they perfectly fit in what Tolkien wanted to write)
The temptations that came from "evil angels", are just that - temptations. Every person with free will can resist them (because Eru wouldn't allow "evil spirits" to do the same temptation for Aragorn and Gaffer Gamgee (for example)).
You must draw a line.
You can't mix Nazguls and Maeglin with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas.
Nazguls and Maeglin choosed to serve evil wills, and therefore we can say they don't have free will. But they choosed that long time a go.
We don't know much about Nazguls, but Maeglin is great example.
He didn't choose, once he was in front of Morgoth, he choose before that (when he was deciding, if he will meet Morgoth or not, at all).
That's it.
When he was alone in his room (and even more in his thoughts), decision if he will meet Morgoth or not... this is the time... this is the crucial period... and this is exactly where Eru gave him unlimited freedom to choose... he choosed wrong.
Great that you mentioned 3 elves that removed their rings.. exactly.. in some other occasions, some could choose to actually not remove ring, but get a price to be a ruler of much greater kingdom then he have initially.

Finally, Galadriel temptation - same thing.
She was tempted many times, but the biggest temptation was after Frodo offered her The One Ring.

To claim free will for those crushed by forces utterly beyond their capabilities to resist is simply a very bad joke.

No bro.
Samwise Gamgee, the simplest, the poorest, the humblest... resisted temptation, from a evil will so stronger then him, even inside Mordor, even very close to Mount Doom.
And he is the favorite Tolkien character, right?

 

[Aldarion]

But are they free if Sauron is oppressing them and taking there free will away. Sauron is trying to give them the exact opposite of what the Valar will. Sauron sees free will as chaos, so without free will comes order - which is what he wants most. So is doing nothing while someone takes away the thing they want to protect (free will) really helping anyone. Yes the people are free to fall under the oppression of Sauron but I don't think that's what they would want.

Because they did something like that already, and it sank most of Beleriand under the waves.

Intervention by the Valar is very much crossing Godzilla treshold. If Godzilla was continent-sized and excreted black holes. No way they will have intervened directly just for Sauron, especially not after what had happened the last time.

 

[Olorgando]

I'll take a different order.
2. The Three Great Elven Rings. Celebrimbor must have distributed them quickly after Sauron put on his One Ring - or was it even before?
They went to Galadriel, Gil-galad and Cirdan. What if they had gone to the likes of Eöl, or his dad or some of his uncles?
1. The Nine. Yes, I suppose these rings, imparting invisibility and some other capabilities to "Big Folk" who were already besotted with power, were a temptation to them. Boromir is a late echo (and this is the reason why any of them, including Aragorn, were out of the question as Ring-bearers).
But.
Did Sauron cheerily tell them "By the way, if you use these rings often enough, you will at some point stay invisible, and become my mindless slaves."?
Bad sales pitch, I think not.
3. You have not commented on this quote.
4. Maeglin (and other prisoners in Angband) Please! Maeglin was not tempted by Morgoth. He was threatened with tortures beyond anything possible in our world (I hope so, but I'm not entirely sure anymore). And that escapees from Angband, more often those released on purpose, were utterly cowed by Morgoth is a constant though much of JRRT's writing (perhaps more so earlier parts - which he often never got around to revising).
Released from Angband. Húrin. Yes, he defied Morgoth to the end (but was deluded by selective viewing as Denethor would be two ages later).
But.
Was he able to refuse watching what happened to his family? Not by what JRRT wrote. No free will here.
5. I included this point to show that even Saruman, two steps down from Morgoth, had capabilities to affect even a human as exceptional as Aragorn. The Hobbits, in "The Scouring of the Shire", had only to deal with a few ruffians they vastly outnumbered, and with a Saruman who had his staff broken by Gandalf the White. Should they have been expected to deal with the likes of the forces that attacked Helm's Deep, or even those that attacked Minas Tirith? But that's basically what Elrond says at the council, that the One Ring and its master "belong to Middle-earth" and must be dealt with by its denizens. Yeah, sure, because Eonwë didn't "snap the handcuffs" on Sauron at the end of the First Age and drag him back to Valinor for sentencing. Either he or his boss was a jerk.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

- or was it even before?

Before. As soon as Sauron put on the One, "they" took "theirs" off.

 

[Deimos]

Lol.. and there I thought that I would agreed on everything our friend Olorgando write.
Apparently not.


No bro, imho.
Look.. you gave nice examples, but I think you forget to draw a very important line.
There is a line before you choose, and after you choose.
The way I see it (I will use some theology conclusions that I've learned, because I think they they perfectly fit in what Tolkien wanted to write)
The temptations that came from "evil angels", are just that - temptations. Every person with free will can resist them (because Eru wouldn't allow "evil spirits" to do the same temptation for Aragorn and Gaffer Gamgee (for example)).
You must draw a line.
You can't mix Nazguls and Maeglin with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas.
Nazguls and Maeglin choosed to serve evil wills, and therefore we can say they don't have free will. But they choosed that long time a go.
We don't know much about Nazguls, but Maeglin is great example.
He didn't choose, once he was in front of Morgoth, he choose before that (when he was deciding, if he will meet Morgoth or not, at all).
That's it.
When he was alone in his room (and even more in his thoughts), decision if he will meet Morgoth or not... this is the time... this is the crucial period... and this is exactly where Eru gave him unlimited freedom to choose... he choosed wrong.
Great that you mentioned 3 elves that removed their rings.. exactly.. in some other occasions, some could choose to actually not remove ring, but get a price to be a ruler of much greater kingdom then he have initially.

Finally, Galadriel temptation - same thing.
She was tempted many times, but the biggest temptation was after Frodo offered her The One Ring.


No bro.
Samwise Gamgee, the simplest, the poorest, the humblest... resisted temptation, from a evil will so stronger then him, even inside Mordor, even very close to Mount Doom.
And he is the favorite Tolkien character, right?

Bravo! Exactly what I was going to say.
The Nine Initially chose to align/themselves with Sauron.
Anyone who freely chooses to serve evil will eventually be dominated by it, meaning his will is weakened (NOT taken away) such that he can no longer resist a superior will. He may well be able to resist an evil will equal to his own that is pressed upon him.
To make an analogy, a fit athlete should he decide to stop training, will eventually become unfit, and unable to to compete (He will be physically dominated..think wrestling). His ability is not taken from him, he has failed to use it, exercise it and maintain it.
The saying is (with respect to nature) "Use it or lose it".

Also in the OP I thought he was referring to the "Free Peoples of ME"; that is, the beings created by Eru or with his approval.
Not beings created by the will of Melkor or Sauron, or anyone totally given over to Evil. They may not have had the the capacity for fror free will from the git-go. And that may have been the by the will of Eru.
Remember Eru never interferes with Free Will. SO he allows the Melkor, Sauron et al to "create" beings (orcs), but he has denied those [sub-created] beings Free Will.

 

[Deimos]

SOmething else to consider....
Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, whomever, takes a way a person's free will.... "TAKES AWAY"
If you take away something from someone, there is now a void, an emptiness, a space, if you will, where that "thing" was.
In this case there is now a void, a nothing, where there was was once the capacity/capability of free will.
So once all those nasty superior beings are no longer in the picture, all those people who have had their free will capability taken are still left with a void; i.e., they still have no free will.
So who "puts it back" in them? How how is free will restored? Do they get it back at alll?
But if they have merely been dominated, overwhelmed yet still have the capacity (weakened "unexercised") once the dominating will is removed, they can begin to strengthen their own wills again.
I'm thinking of the Southrons/ Easterlings/ Men of Dunlending who were endowed with free will from the beginning.
If they have their Free Will restored and it can't be determined who's responsible for doing that, they never lost it in the first place; i.e. it was never taken away, only weakened.

 

[Deimos]

Objection.
Exhibit 1: The Nazgûl. Sauron had brought them under his control so completely that he could take their rings away from them and still completely dominate them.
Exhibit 2: When Sauron put on his One Ring the first Time, the bearers of the Three Great Elven Rings immediately took theirs off, as they perceived that the same thing would happen to them as happened to the Nazgûl.
Exhibit 3: When Sauron noticed Frodo at the Cracks of Doom when the latter put on the One Ring, From chapter III of Book Six in RotK, p. 957:
"From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free, and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired."
Exhibit 4: Maeglin et. al. Morgoth was able to daunt them to a degree that they were unable to act against his will.
Exhibit 5: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli chasing the Uruk-hai, from chapter II of Book Four in TT, p. 430:
"There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint, and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb."
"Truly!" said Legolas. "That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us." ...
"Saruman!", muttered Aragorn.

Time and time again JRRT describes situations where the "evil angels" are able to use their hugely superior capabilities to render lesser beings practically without will, at huge distances (seems the inverse square law say of gravity does not apply here, at least not nearly fully), or at least impede the wills even of the strong-willed such as Aragorn. He manages to continue against Saruman's efforts, later even (if just barely) manages to wrench control of the Orthanc Stone from Sauron - at a very great distance.

To claim free will for those crushed by forces utterly beyond their capabilities to resist is simply a very bad joke. To let such forces run free on Middle-earth is the blackest mark against the Valar - of for that matter Eru. Considering the huge slaughter he allowed to happen throughout the ages, one wonders if he is a fan of things like bullfighting, or the Roman Circus.

You didn't say "take away" ....So to "practically" do it means the effect is the same (loss of will), to impede it is to dominate it.
I don't see either of those descriptions as actually "taking it away"; i.e removing it.
Making a "feeble, in effectual protest" against something you know is morally wrong is one example of diminished free will, but it is not loss of it.
You're not strong enough in to defy the person imposing his will on yours, so you "go along to get along", yet you know that the act is wrong.

 

[d4rk3lf]

4. Maeglin (and other prisoners in Angband) Please! Maeglin was not tempted by Morgoth. He was threatened with tortures beyond anything possible in our world (I hope so, but I'm not entirely sure anymore)...

Are we talk about same Maeglin?
I never knew he was a prisoner of Angband. All i know that he is the son of Eol, and very welcome guest in Gondolin.
Why you wrote what I quoted now?
Maeglin was never prisoner in Angband.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Are we talk about same Maeglin?
I never knew he was a prisoner of Angband. All i know that he is the son of Eol, and very welcome guest in Gondolin.
Why you wrote what I quoted now?
Maeglin was never prisoner in Angband.

Now on a time, when Eärendil was yet young, Maeglin was lost. For he, as has been told, loved mining and quarrying after metals above all other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking after metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, and the King knew not that his bidding was defied; and thus it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin was taken prisoner by Orcs, and brought to Angband. Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit, and he purchased his life and freedom by revealing to Morgoth the very place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed.
The Silmarillion, Of Tuor...

 

[AElberethGilthoniel]

The asking of OP's question is always so strange to me. It's like people wish there wasn't any story in Lord of the Rings at all. You miss the entire point. This is not a Silmarillion question, but a Lord of the Rings question. There is no need to discuss the different powers of every Valar and every Maiar sent into the world to understand this. This is a story about the will and power each and every person in this world has, from the smallest to the most powerful. This is a story about great sweeping battles that ultimately end up in the hands of those who are usually powerless, those whom the enemy does not think capable of destroying him. In times of great evil, even the smallest has power to bring about good, even when the choice between right and wrong is uncertain. And that power does not have to come from brute force. That is why the Valar cannot intercede. Because otherwise there would be no story, no point.