Why is 🧙Gandalf The White indistinguishable from Gandalf the Grey?

[Ent]

Lets discuss some theories.
When Gandalf returns, Tolkien writes him to be virtually indistinguishable from Gandalf the Grey. (Except for those few close to him, who notice some small differences in his behavior, and his character.)

He is not recognized as different in Rohan. He is not recognized as different in Gondor. He is not recognized as different by Saruman.
Galadriel has "fashioned a new staff for him," yet even his staff is never mentioned as being different.
Unless he "throws back his cloak and reveals himself" as Gandalf the White, no one knows him to be any different than he was. (One of PJ's greatest mistakes.)

Of course - how many even know Gandalf has fallen in Moria? Other than possibly the Elves of Lothlorien, who knows?

That said, what is it about Gandalf in Tolkien's character development, Middle-earth morality, etc. driving Tolkien to make him so identical to Gandalf the Grey, no one notices any difference?

Your thoughts?

 

[d4rk3lf]

Well, he is somewhat different in readers eyes (and that's most important).
At least in my eyes.
He is even more decisive, then ever before. He can analyze situation better then ever. His power is obviously much bigger (even he admits it).
I like the change a lot, even it's somewhat subtle.

And don't get me started on PJ Gandalf. Ian is a great actor, but that is not Gandalf (neother Gray, nor White).
It's just some good wizard dude.. gentle and soft... nothing like Gandalf the Stormcrow!

As for the crowd populating M.E. there are also one hint that he is changed (for those who knows to look).
His robe.
I think his clothing is designed to look much more poor (beggar like) then Gandalf the Gray.
But still, there are some common people who can look though it.

A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes....
‘Yes, I will go,’ he answered slowly. ‘But what names shall I report?And what shall I say of you? Old and weary you seem now, and yet you are fell and grim beneath, I deem.
’‘Well do you see and speak,’ said the wizard. ‘For I am Gandalf. I have returned.

 

[Deimos]

Like @d4rk3lf says, he's just .... different (from what he was as G the Grey).
He always displayed or projected authority, but it was subtle.
As Gandalf the White his authority was much more apparent, like he radiated it.

 

[Ricardo]

Physically, he didn't need to be different, his appearance is just a garment because he is an Ainur. Not sure if with diminished powers (even as Gandalf the White) he could do it himself but he was sent back looking the same as before.

There were some differences and as the book said, only distinguishable by those that knew him well. Power of course, but the fact that his memory was closer to Olorin's memory than before.

I think it makes sense to hide the fact he was different. He still was there to encourage others, to give hope and advice, not to fight.

It worked, Saruman apparently was taken by surprise, and that can explain why the witch king dared to face him.

 

[herlig9]

Power of resurrection is my guess. Aswell as Saruman the White has been corrupted. So Gandalf being reincarnated with authority is likely why he got that title and change of colour.

 

[Ent]

But... why does Tolkien keep him appearing so "outwardly looking" just like he looked before?
What do you suspect Tolkien's reasoning for that was given his goals and objectives in the grand scheme of things Middle-earth?

And let's explore the other part of my question:
How many do you feel may, or may not, have been 'aware' Gandalf had even 'fallen in Moria' ??? And why so or why not?

What were Tolkien's purposes for handling it all this way, do you think? Very little 'outward' difference in Gandalf at all - and only subtle changes to his character and behaviors for the 'astute' among his acquaintances? What is Tolkien trying to get at with all this?

Every Tolkien character is written precisely in a way to drive Tolkien's points home.

What are his points with Gandalf in this particular area?

 

[d4rk3lf]

What is Tolkien trying to get at with all this?

To make story more unpredictable, therefore more interesting?

I think that back then, it was rather original choice to make one of the main character die so early.
And Gandalf fight on bridge was more then epic... he sacrificed himself so others can have a chance.

So, I assume Tolkien wanted:
1) Remove one powerful character a bit too early, so audience can be in a bit of shock
2) Return him in an epic manner for final conclusion.

And, in my case personally, Tolkien totally succeeded in that.
I was very sad when Gandalf died, because he was my favorite character, but I was flooded with joy, when he returned.
Go go Gandalf!

These days, kids will not be surprised with that turn of events, because writers today, and movie writers, and games, are doing all crazy things with killing and resurrecting characters.

Back then, it was not something you encounter often in hero stories.

 

[Eljorahir]

How many do you feel may, or may not, have been 'aware' Gandalf had even 'fallen in Moria' ??? And why so or why not?

How many...I don't know, but here's one who knew...

Faramir knew that Gandalf fell "into the abyss" because Frodo told him so. Maybe it's even a bit strange that later, when he meets Gandalf at Minas Tirith, he doesn't say: "Hey! I thought you fell into an abyss. What's up with that?!"

 

[d4rk3lf]

Faramir knew that Gandalf fell "into the abyss" because Frodo told him so. Maybe it's even a bit strange that later, when he meets Gandalf at Minas Tirith, he doesn't say: "Hey! I thought you fell into an abyss. What's up with that?!"

Hah indeed!
That never ever crossed my mind.
He did asked about hobbit, though.

Maybe he did wanted to ask Gandalf, but he remembered thee famous M.E. sentence: "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger!".

 

[Eljorahir]

When Gandalf returns, Tolkien writes him to be virtually indistinguishable from Gandalf the Grey. (Except for those few close to him, who notice some small differences in his behavior, and his character.)

That said, what is it about Gandalf in Tolkien's character development, Middle-earth morality, etc. driving Tolkien to make him so identical to Gandalf the Grey, no one notices any difference?

Gandalf the White had to remain almost the same as Gandalf the Grey because his mission and constraints had not changed...

Unfinished Tales, The Istari:
'...forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.'

 

[Deimos]

But... why does Tolkien keep him appearing so "outwardly looking" just like he looked before?
What do you suspect Tolkien's reasoning for that was given his goals and objectives in the grand scheme of things Middle-earth?

And let's explore the other part of my question:
How many do you feel may, or may not, have been 'aware' Gandalf had even 'fallen in Moria' ??? And why so or why not?

What were Tolkien's purposes for handling it all this way, do you think? Very little 'outward' difference in Gandalf at all - and only subtle changes to his character and behaviors for the 'astute' among his acquaintances? What is Tolkien trying to get at with all this?

Every Tolkien character is written precisely in a way to drive Tolkien's points home.

What are his points with Gandalf in this particular area?

Read Letter 156.
It is rather long and gets a bit theological (it's addressed to a Jesuit whom he apparently knew quite well) but I think it will answer your questions.
It is too dense for me to summarize here... I have not the talent.

 

[Ricardo]

But... why does Tolkien keep him appearing so "outwardly looking" just like he looked before?
What do you suspect Tolkien's reasoning for that was given his goals and objectives in the grand scheme of things Middle-earth?

And let's explore the other part of my question:
How many do you feel may, or may not, have been 'aware' Gandalf had even 'fallen in Moria' ??? And why so or why not?

What were Tolkien's purposes for handling it all this way, do you think? Very little 'outward' difference in Gandalf at all - and only subtle changes to his character and behaviors for the 'astute' among his acquaintances? What is Tolkien trying to get at with all this?

Every Tolkien character is written precisely in a way to drive Tolkien's points home.

What are his points with Gandalf in this particular area?

The Valar sent 5 maiar to help in the fight against Sauron. 4 of them failed their mission so only Gandalf was left. I think that's the reason for the upgrade, which basically meant removing some restrictions.

But still, the reason why the Istari were diminished is because they didn't want them to appear in all their might, for fear of the consequences after what happened previously when the Ainur were involved. In that sense, they did not want to advertise Gandalf's new powers. Saruman seemed to not know what he was dealing with and so did the Witch King, that would have been utterly defeated had he not flee. (despite what PJ says).

He was more powerful, but his mission was still the same, help, advice, encourage, give hope, not blast its enemies with fire, unless absolutely necessary.

As for how many people knew Gandalf fell in Moria, well, the members of the fellowship of course, the elves of Lorien and possibly the people of Cirdan and Rivendell (through messengers from Lorien). Not sure Sauron knew although some orcs might have witnessed the fall and come to Barad Dur with that information. Possibly Gollum? he was in Moria at that time.

One interesting point here is that the Valar sent the Istari before Sauron reappeared, so obviously they thought he would eventually rise again and be a serious threat.