Witch-King

[Lantarion]

Yup I agree. Merry's blade "unknit" the cursed spells which kept the Witch-king in one piece, and then Éowyn needed only to strike him down.

 

[laurelindorenan]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Yup I agree. Merry's blade "unknit" the cursed spells which kept the Witch-king in one piece,

So the Witch King had some other magic eh? Ah, of course, because the people of Gondor felt his presence over them or something, right? Cool. Anyway, maybe it was because Eowyn was a woman that the WK fell. Something to do with the being not a man, right? Yeah.

 

[Evenstar373]

I am out done by all of yall and I think I will just stay out of this before I get hurt

 

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by laurelindorenan
So the Witch King had some other magic eh? Ah, of course, because the people of Gondor felt his presence over them or something, right? Cool. Anyway, maybe it was because Eowyn was a woman that the WK fell. Something to do with the being not a man, right? Yeah.

Being a man or not had nothing to do with it, IMO.
I think that Glorfindel's prophecy concerning the end of the Witch-king is one of the most misinterpreted parts of the stories that have emerged from Tolkien's world.

Glorfindel did not say that Men or men could not kill the Witch-king.
What he said, was that the Witch-king would fall by the hands of a woman.

Think of it as foreseeing, and not a curse, and you will see the difference.

 

[laurelindorenan]

Right. Glad to have that cleared up. So the prophecy or whatever did come true then. Though I suppose the Witch King might have seen it as a curse, even though you have so well informed me it wasn't. *thinks what it must be like to be Witch King*

 

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Glorfindel did not say that Men or men could not kill the Witch-king.
What he said, was that the Witch-king would fall by the hands of a woman.

Think of it as foreseeing, and not a curse, and you will see the difference.

Please forgive my stupidity. But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while capable of killing the Witch King were unable to do so? This would be further backed up by the WK himself:

You fool. No living man may hinder me.

 

[Lantarion]

Hehe, I'd say that the Witch-king was being a touch arrogant there.. Nothing to do with actual ability or possibility.

LOL that's an excellent contradiction: ". But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while capable of killing the Witch King were unable to do so?"

 

[Flammifer]

Going back to the origin of the Barrow-blades, I would also add this to Inder's convincing list of quotes:

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king.

If you look at the bold writing, apart from all the other quotes Inder has provided us with, it is clear that the sword was a work of Westernesse.

Anyway, about the immortality of the Witch-king, this is my opinion -

I think that we are looking at the whole "immortality" thing the wrong way. The Ringwraiths were not "immortal" as Elves were. They survived while the Ring survived.

They were wraiths, that is, they were of the spirit world, and were only made visible when they wore clothing - otherwise they were completely invisible (save the eyes) to anyone Hobbit, Dwarf or Man who lived in the normal world.

They were wraiths because they became enslaved to their nine Rings - just as Gandalf explains to Frodo in the chapter "The Shadow of the Past"; if one wears a Ring of Power too much you begin to "fade", and eventually you will become invisible to any other who lives soully in the normal world. You will become a wraith. Not a Ringwraith, but just a wraith, "lesser, and under their control".

So basically, as the Ringwraiths were enslaved to their Rings, and in turn the nine Rings were under the power of the One Ring, the Ringwraiths survived as long as the One Ring did.

Therfore, the Nazgul were not immortal. They were sort of "stuck there".

When Eowyn and Merry combined to defeat the Witch-king, they erased him from the normal world - he could not grow or take shape again. He was completely powerless. But he was not completely "gone" or "dead" until the One Ring was destroyed.

 

[Helcaraxë]

I disagree that the witch king dies at at all. It never says, "and the Witch-King kicked the bucket." What the book does say is, "his cry would never be heard in THIS AGE OF THE WORLD" or something like that. Not "in this age of the world. It says nothing about any other ages.

--MB

 

[Inderjit S]

It's just a cryptic literay technique used by Tolkien, a archaic way of saying "he is dead and you will never see him again."

Since Tolkien states several times that with the end of the T.A came the end of the mytholgoical or supernatural apsects of M-E then we can assume he never came back again.

Besides with the destruction of the Ring all the Nazgûl were destroyed.

 

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Lantarion
LOL that's an excellent contradiction: ". But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while capable of killing the Witch King were unable to do so?"

It's all in the wording...

Translation: In a 1 on 1 fight a male could beat the Witch King, bar the prophecy. But, as prophesied, he would not be killed by a man, so no male could hope to kill him.

Weren't the Nazgul "undead?"

Originally posted by Lantarion
Hehe, I'd say that the Witch-king was being a touch arrogant there.. Nothing to do with actual ability or possibility.

The WK doesn't strike me as the type who would be arrogant or boastful. I think he was merely stating he knew his fate wasn't to be by a man's sword. Remember, when Dernhelm revealed herself, the WK was thrown into doubt, perhaps realizing for the first time that man was meant as a gender, not a race.

 

[Lantarion]

You mean you sincerely think that after commanding a troop of Sauron's most elite servants, and after being in Sauron's personal favour for hundreds of years, and after displaying the powers he has, the Witch-king would not be proud or arrogant at all?!

I beg to disagree.

 

[Gandalf White]

Fine, I will allow that he had reason to be proud. Whether or not he let that pride go to his head is debatable. Even if he did, there is no proof that his statement was a result of this arrogance.

But still, you entirely ignore my second point! If he was just boasting when he said

No living man may hinder me!

then why was he suddenly in doubt when Dernhelm revealed herself to be a woman?

 

[Lantarion]

Doh sorry I didn't read that second point properly.

Yeah you may be right there. I say that the WK first said "No living man may hinder me" arrogantly, expecting 'Dernhelm' to be just some Rohirrim-soldier on his own. I think what really stunned the WK was Éowyn's own determination and lack of fear in his presence; after all the WK had probably grown accustomed to all his enemies to shrivel in fear when he came near them, and even though he was undead he was still a Man, an evil Man at that, naturally full of pride and flaws and errors in judgment.
But it is possible as well that he might have reconsidered the meaning of his 'doom'; but I just don't see the Witch-king blindly accepting a fate which some Elf somewhere has once said.

 

[Arvedui]

One detail that strikes me as a little odd:

Did the Witch-king know about Glorfindel's Prophecy?

I can't see how or why he should, but others might have an answer.
But if he didn't, then how could he mean anything else than in the same lines as Lanty suggests?

 

[HLGStrider]

Was it Glorfindel's personal prophecy? I always assumed he'd read it somewhere or that it was a common legend.

 

[Arvedui]

The prophecy can be found in the Appendices. (I am a bit on thin ice here, not having the books with me.)

Gondor and Círdan tried to come to the aid of Arthedain when the Witch-king overran it in 1974 T.A. But they were too late to save the Kingdom of my alter ego. Nevertheless, they were able to destroy the forces of Angmar, and only the Witch-king remained.

Eärnur (I think it was him, but if I am wrong, someone will probably correct me ) tried to go against the WK, but his horse was too afraid and the WK disappeared in the fog.
When Eärnur(?) wanted to pursue, Glorfindel uttered the famous words.
The way the whole situation is described has led me to believe that it is foreseeing, and not a prophecy that says that Men or men cannot kill the Witch-king.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Arvedui
The way the whole situation is described has led me to believe that it is foreseeing...

Excellent notion!! Glorfindel was a mighty Elven hero, and if Galadriel and other Elves had some natural gift of foresight then it is not impossible that Glorfindel also did.
In this light it certainly seems that Glorfindel was only forseeing the future demise of the WK, which might have been twisted into 'prophecy' over the years.

 

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Yeah you may be right there. I say that the WK first said "No living man may hinder me" arrogantly, expecting 'Dernhelm' to be just some Rohirrim-soldier on his own. I think what really stunned the WK was Éowyn's own determination and lack of fear in his presence; after all the WK had probably grown accustomed to all his enemies to shrivel in fear when he came near them, and even though he was undead he was still a Man, an evil Man at that, naturally full of pride and flaws and errors in judgment.

If the WK was stunned by Éowyn's determination, he should have been so before she revealed herself to be a woman. Already she had shown complete determination, as well as a lack of fear, but at the mention of being a woman, doubt entered his mind.

Originally posted by Arvedui
Did the Witch-king know about Glorfindel's Prophecy?

This is what it says about Glorfindel's prophecy:

These words many remembered.

It wouldn't be surprising if the WK got wind of this foresight. Lanty pointed out how he was a flawed, proud human, so he could have easily translated this as a prophecy, mistaking man for Man. This would explain his statement to Éowyn, as well as his doubt when he considered that 'man' might mean gender.

What really confuses me is the difference between 'foresight' and 'prophecy.' Could someone give my dense mind a detailed explanation?

 

[Arvedui]

I get your point. Hard to tell, but my understanding is that a prophecy is more of a curse, while foresight is what is says.
I better check my Dictionary before commenting in more detail.