Was Maeglin evil?

[Ithrynluin]

Would you say Maeglin was an evil character overall?

Did he consciously commit evil deeds?

Or was he more of a victim of his circumstances and/or a captive of his desires?

 

[Starbrow]

I wouldn't say he was totally evil. He was a mix of both good and evil, although he certainly did more than his share of evil acts.

 

[Thorondor_]

In Of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin it is said that :

...and indeed desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor led Maeglin the easier to his treachery, most infamous in all the histories of the Elder Days

Moreover, his father was of the dark elves, of whom it was further said:

The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eol.

 

[YayGollum]

To an extent, as a matter of course. I don't know of any Tolkien type character that was pure good or pure evil. Also, he certainly didn't do more than his share of evil. He did exactly his share of evil, just as the scary Eru dude intended. That creepy guy, hanging out in the Void, watching what all of those pre-programmed Ainur and elveses were doing, pretty much the same as watching an old movie that you directed.

 

[Helcaraxë]

Yup. Definitely one evil dude. Not completely bad of course, but no-one is in Tolkien. On the whole, he ranks high on the evilometer. Whatever psychological motivations he might have had don't hide that fact.

Yay, I wouldn't call the Ainur pre-programmed. Iluvatar created them but they've got free will.

 

[Maeglin]

No.

Ok so he was madly (to the point of being psychotic, big deal ) in love with Idril, but she didn't love him back. That doesn't make him particularly evil. It made him more willing to betray Gondolin, but he was a mighty warrior for the kingdom in earlier wars, kicking lots of orc rear-end. Also, its not like he went looking for Morgoth and set up this big intricate plan. He just mined a little further then he was supposed to, probably just trying to get his mind off of Idril and the evil greedy Tuor, and he got captured. Now that is just plain bad luck, not evil. And then he was tortured for ohhh...lets be generous and say it was 5 years or so before he gave in, but he was offered a pretty juicy reward for just for telling Morgoth how to get into the city and on top of that he gets out of his little torture chamber or wherever he was being kept. Sounds like a good deal to me. A victim of his circumstances and perhaps didn't make all of the best choices? Certainly. But evil? I have to lean towards "no" on this one, even though my signature may suggest differently.

 

[Varokhâr]

Nice answer, YayGollum

I'd say evil-ish, to an extent. He was no servant of Morgoth, but not much of a good guy, all in all. He was a mixture of good, evil, and circumstance; he made bad choices and also was a product of his environment and times.

He had a bad streak, sure, but not evil per-se.

 

[Ingwë]

I think he did evil deeds but he wasn't evil character. He loved Idril and he hated Tuor. But he didn't think about betraying Gondolin. I don't think he wanted to do it but he didn't have a choice and because of his hatred of Тuor he did it. If Idril loved him he would never betray the city. But he was insane. If you really love a woman you wouldn't do anything that can wound her.

 

[YayGollum]

I thought about leaving that Ainur bit out in my last post, Helcaraxe person, but didn't see it as incorrect and figured that it made the Eru dude look a bit scarier. As far as I can tell, the Ainur types were just a bunch of singing robots who later went on to sort of rule creation. Sort of. As well as a bunch of singing robots led by Spirit Of Sock Puppet Manwe could rule. They had their specialities, their obsessions, which were selected for them by the Eru dude. They thought only along the lines that they were equipped with, Mel being the most widely gifted, which is why he is the closest Ainur thing to human. Still didn't have free will, was just around to entertain Eru, make him look good in the grand scheme of things, but had the most ingenuity. Too bad the guy was only able to mess with other people's creations. Think of how much more interesting things could have been if Mel could give birth to every bit of creativity that popped into his brain.

Ah, anyways, yes, the Maeglin dude = not so evil, look to blame the dude who designed him that way, for whatever reason.

Also, Yay for the Maeglin person, as well as, Hm... and ---> Why would your signature thing spout that?

Also, also, as a matter of course, Varokhar person. All of my answers are good.

 

[Maeglin]

Also, Yay for the Maeglin person, as well as, Hm... and ---> Why would your signature thing spout that?:

Well my sig is a line directly from the very last sentence in the chapter from the Silmarillion, "Of Maeglin," and is referring to him.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, sure. I was mostly asking why someone who seems to be a bit more sympathetic to the character would choose a line that didn't show off something that wouldn't bring evil to the brains of the common folk. I guess that pointing out how he was a character not to be trifled with is a good thing, too, though.

 

[Gil-Galad]

The fact that his father was of the dark elves,as Thorodor_ pointed out,does not mean per se that he was evil.

I would say that the circumstances made him evil.He wouldn't have betrayed Gondolin,if Tuor hadn't "stolen" his love.Of,course Maeglin's feelings can't justify his actions,but still we can't just say "yup,he was evil".

I would say that the circumstances made him take the wrong path and make the wrong decisions.

 

[Noldor_returned]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Evil can mean cruel, unjust, wicked and various other synonyms.

What was the cause of Maeglin's actions? Jealousy, greed, anger. These things do not make a wicked person, but they may cause someone to do wicked things. Maeglin himself was not an evil person, but his actions caused him to do something evil. His thoughts were not malicious, and he merely acted out of lust and desire.

Or at least, that's the way I see it.

 

[Grond]

His actions from the beginning of his story reveal him to be have a dark personality and one that would be prone to explore the dark sides. I believe that evil was in his nature and was an inescapable trait placed there by Eru.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Annaheru]

No.

Ok so he was madly (to the point of being psychotic, big deal ) in love with Idril, but she didn't love him back. That doesn't make him particularly evil.
And then he was tortured for ohhh...lets be generous and say it was 5 years or so before he gave in, but he was offered a pretty juicy reward for just for telling Morgoth how to get into the city and on top of that he gets out of his little torture chamber or wherever he was being kept.

two points if I may:

Maeglin's love for Idril was. . .odd. . . "The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so . . . For it seemed to her [Idril] a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it. . ." (Of Maeglin).
So, by Elvish standards, Maeglin is the first recorded pervert.

My second:

Maeglin wasn't tortured-- ". . .the torture werewith he was threatened cowed his spirit. . ." (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, emphasis added)

Maeglin gave in before the pain started. He sold out. It would be easy to forgive him (he is facing Morgoth) except that Hurin had been in the same situation and defied Morgoth.


So my answer is Maeglin became evil. For none are evil in their beginning, therefore a character can only be judged by what they've done, and Maeglin did some bad sh--.

 

[HLGStrider]

When I started reading his story, I felt a great deal of pity for the fellow and felt he had a lot of potential. I'm doing all this from memory so correct me if I am wrong:

Product of a spirited elf woman basically kidnapped and raped by a tyranical monster. Bad start.

Longed to produce things such as his mother described in Gondolin. Leaning towards good.

Saw his father kill his mother and then watched in silence as the elves executed his father who died cursing him. Really bad start.

Fell in love with cousin. Strange. Cousin saw something dark in him. Bad sign. Cousin really can't be blamed in rejecting him, but it doesn't help the situation at all.

Cousin finds human lover.

Now I see this as a turning point where Maeglin can either get over it and pursue other interests (such as his craftmanship) or sink into bitterness. Apparently he picked bitterness. Downhill from there.

So he was a mixed bag who chose the wrong path about midway through the story . .. with a lot of help from situations beyond his control. Because there are tons of characters in Tolkien who defeated worse to become heroes, I can't really coddle the character (oh, poor victim, couldn't help himself.), but I think he deserves some pity for what he went through.

Always get an early intervention desire when I read about characters like this.

If you want to take a character I find an interesting paralel from another book, there is the man from The Tale of Two Cities. Reminded me a lot of Maeglin in some ways, both had promise and had fallen in love with a woman who later fell in love with a man other than him. Sidney frittered his promise on drink. Maeglin frittered his on bitterness. When it came down to it and both were asked to make a sacrifice Maeglin refused to endure pain to save his country, Sidney agreed to lose his life to save his beloved's husband.

Every good character starts out with a mixed bag and is given a point where they can chose to be one thing or another. Maeglin definitely had a more distinct chosing point, but I think that's all there is to it.
​

 

[YayGollum]

Ugh. Sure, I am leaning away from the topic of this thread thing, but oh well. I have way more sympathy for Eol than I do for Maeglin. Argh! Why do so many hate poor Eol? Calling him a tyrannical monster? Neither, easily, I would write! He's just another introverted, anti-social, and misunderstood artist. A good friend of Dwarves, which pretty much always makes someone cool, within my book. Left Thingol's creepy little forest when the guy's wife decided to make an evil bubble of discrimination around it. Looks like his boycott didn't sway very many, but he didn't mind. He was plenty capable of taking care of himself.

Until one day, when he got all twitterpated. Poor dude. Fell in love in exactly the way that Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien, and the evil Aragorn and Arwen did, except that his love was tragically unrequited. So many think that the way that those other characters fell in love was achingly romantic. Why do those humans not feel sorry for poor Eol, then? Just because he captured the lady and held her against her will for a really long time?

Oh. Well, as I already wrote, he was very anti-social. Not so adept at the social arts. Didn't know that courting her parents for several years was a prerequisite. Didn't see much beauty in flowers. Chocolate hadn't been invented yet. You understand. Also, what mattered most to him ---> She was obviously Noldorish and surrounded by plenty of other representatives of that murderous race. He despised and probably feared Noldor types. A good reason to sneakily spirit the lady away from her travelling companions.

Keeping her and the kid trapped was merely what he figured to be best. Unfortunate that the lady didn't have the sense to be too repulsed by her relatives to wish to go back, of course, but all he could do was attempt to be a good example. I saw no evidence that he was a horrible father, either. Was probably a decent teacher, taught his kid not to look down on Dwarves, stuff like that. Unfortunate that the kid was pure evil and that the lady could never stop whining about wishing for the superly pampered life she had back in Gondolin.

 

[HLGStrider]

Just because he captured the lady and held her against her will for a really long time? .

That'd be the jist of it. Unrequainted love: Romantic. Kidnapping: not so romantic.

 

[YayGollum]

The gist of it, and ---> unrequited love, actually. Is the evil as well as sickeningly and incomprehensibly popular World Of Woodcraft (as I speak of it) affecting your spelling abilities? oh well. I wasn't attempting to make the point that Eol was an especially romantic or unromantic character. I was attempting make the point that he could have been, at least by the standards that many readers of Tolkien type stories seem to have, and that those people should feel sorry for him. I hardly ever bump into anyone who feels sorry for him. Many merely think of him as The Dark elf, which makes them think that any other elves designated Dark must be pure evil. Poor stereotyped characters. oh well. Kidnapping someone who you accidentally as well as suddenly fell in love with from a bunch of elves that you think of as pure evil isn't tyrannical or monstrous, though. Sure, maybe a bit extreme and inconvenient and unfair and scary, but then, are those not good adjectives for many popular love stories? Ick.

 

[HLGStrider]

I think Yay should get himself kidnapped to see if he thinks it is any fun. . .

But I think it starts him out as the villian of the whole thing. His evil in kidnapping a woman created the evil of a son trapped between two parents who didn't like each other at all and basically used him as a weapon against each other (she didn't run away until she raised Maeglin to a point where he could aid her. He refused to name the son. She went behind his back and did it anyway. . . great home life for a kid.). Then he had the obvious inability to let go when his wife did finally leave up to the point of murdering trying to murder the son and killing the wife. He wasn't a victim. A victim would've been broken hearted to lose his wife and child because that is sad. A victim wouldn't have slain said wife. That puts him into freaky stalker type territory.