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Children of Hurin Discussion Thread

Hello all:)

I'm currently reading it as quickly as I can, then I will re-read it, then I will go back to other works to cross-reference what I have learned. Then and only then will I be in a position to post something of limited value to this esteemed forum!

What I have read is excellent so far.
 
I just bought this yesterday with money I got for my birthday. I'd been hoping and dreaming for this for a long time: I'm the biggest Turin fan you'll eve meet. Every time I read Tolkien I go through *everything* in chronological order, so it will be helpful for me because I won't have to keep going back and forth between the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales accounts of Turin.
 
I just bought this yesterday with money I got for my birthday. I'd been hoping and dreaming for this for a long time: I'm the biggest Turin fan you'll eve meet. Every time I read Tolkien I go through *everything* in chronological order, so it will be helpful for me because I won't have to keep going back and forth between the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales accounts of Turin.

There, by God, is a Tolkien fan!:cool: :D

Barley
 
It's true. I even have a list showing me what order to read in - including stories like Tel Elmar and The New Shadow :p.

Anyway, back on topic.
 
Welcome UndertheOath glad you are here. (When you start at the end and read it all backwards then you will be the Ultimate Fan)

I am reading slowly to savor the story. For me Beleg has just joined Turin's Outlaws.

The incident with Saeros was well done.

I find it quite nice to have the story all in one book. :)
 
Hello all:)

I'm currently reading it as quickly as I can, then I will re-read it, then I will go back to other works to cross-reference what I have learned. Then and only then will I be in a position to post something of limited value to this esteemed forum!

What I have read is excellent so far.
Lasa's giving it to me on my birthday (05/23), so I don't dare even look at a cover. I, too, will not comment until I read it in full, cross reference and then study. See y'all in about three months.


Cheers,

grond
 
Valandil's "Quickie" analysis of "Children of Hurin":

* I always want to say Hyurin and Hyuor, but I guess it's really Hoorin - though Hyuor is right. For their kids, I would say both Toorin and Too-or, but in that case, Toorin is right, but it's Tyuor. So... I had half of them right with the correct pronunciation.

* Many, many, MANY people died. You did not want to be IN this story. Your odds of making it through would not be very good.

* Turin had many, MANY woes, which I will endeavor to list at another time.

* Turin had many, MANY names, which I will endeavor to list at another time.

* Three of those names Turin took to himself - upon arriving at each of the last three places he lived (see next point).

* There were five major places where Turin lived: Dor-lomin, Doriath, Amon Rudh/among the outlaws, Nargothrond and Brethil. Going back never did him much good.

* Turin had three lame friends: Sador, Gwindor and Brandir - each of whom is portrayed as giving wise counsel, each of whose counsel Turin disregards, and each of whom dies - in large part (perhaps) because Turin didn't listen to their counsel.

* Brandir and Turin were second cousins, which finally occured to me on seeing the family tree in this book. Interestingly (oddly?), the book makes no direct mention of it - yet Turin should know it all along, and Brandir should know it once he finds out who Turin is.

* Ironic how Niniel/Nienor tells Brandir that he's like a brother to her, but that she loves Turambar/Turin... when in fact Turin IS her brother.

* Turin slew two friends - one in confusion (Beleg), one in anger (Brandir).

* Interestingly, upon slaying Glaurung, Turin recalls of his sword, Anglachel/Gurthang, that the saying said about it at its forging is true, that it will slay whatever it has once bitten. Does he not remember that he was once pricked by that sword?... when Beleg did so accidentally while cutting him loose from the Orc bonds (when he then rose up and slew Beleg). And just a few pages later... the sword takes his life as well.

* Talking sword... cool! :p ;)

* Having just recently re-read "The Silmarillion" and the UT version of the Turin story, MUCH of the material was already presented in either one or the other. I was well into the book before I read something I was sure was unfamiliar.

* Again that question... if Turin had been able to resist the words of Glaurung, and hastened after the Orcs to attempt a rescue of Finduilas, would he have somehow escaped the curse of Morgoth thereby? And... if he didn't love her, as he seems to not have so much at Nargothrond... why does he behave as he does on finding that she died in Brethil? Maybe he felt more for her than he ever let on there...
 
* Again that question... if Turin had been able to resist the words of Glaurung, and hastened after the Orcs to attempt a rescue of Finduilas, would he have somehow escaped the curse of Morgoth thereby? And... if he didn't love her, as he seems to not have so much at Nargothrond... why does he behave as he does on finding that she died in Brethil? Maybe he felt more for her than he ever let on there...

I dunno. To me, the recurring question is if Turin just got his head out of his rear-end, and listened to the advice of his loved ones, how much of his woes would have been avoided.
 
The tale of Turin reads like a Shakespeare tradgedy or like Oedipus Rex.

I think Turin killed himself more of the shame and wastefulness of his life and the realization that everything he loved was gone due mostly to him, then just because his loved one was dead. In the face of such tragedy, the truths that hit him in the face were more than he could take.

I doubt I will read 'Children of Hurin' as I am quite familiar with the story having read it many times in 'Unfinished Tales' and HoME. If it eventually gets to the public library I will pick it up.
 
baragund said:
I dunno. To me, the recurring question is if Turin just got his head out of his rear-end, and listened to the advice of his loved ones, how much of his woes would have been avoided.

Well that's the thing: the basic premise of this whole saga is that Turin and everyone connected with him are living under the evil will of Morgoth. It isn't even a curse, it's simply the situational reality that Morgoth has created, and put all these Elves into. They are born into a lose-lose situation! They're beaten before they're even born! It's just too depressing; I don't plan on getting into it again.

It's The Hobbit for me, and the Party Chapter of LOTR: the doings of the Four Farthings and Bree — otherwise, just leave me the hell alone! :eek: :p

Barley
 
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I agree with BB on both points:

1. Turin's life was bound to be miserable, because Morgoth was going to make sure it was. Besides... the Elves were fighting a losing war. If they had kept being cautious, it wouldn't have mattered in the end. Except that it might have been a generation later before an Earendil went over the sea to Aman.

2. Even before "Children of Hurin" came out, I was making a concerted effort to re-read all the First Age stuff in both Silmarillion and UT - and then moving on into the Second Age. Man is it depressing! :p I don't know if I can keep it up. Or if I even will want to for much longer. We'll see... :)
 
I finished it a week or two ago.
Although I did read the account in the Silmarillion, I never got around to the Narn.

The first thing I noticed in TCoH was the revised title, Narn i Chîn Húrin. Interesting. (I was hoping for some Tengwar on the title page too; oh well.)
I intended to read the book as slowly as I could, but this turned out to be a futile effort as I devoured page after page.

I did manage to refer back to the names in the back each time a new character popped up. I also try to get the pronunciation correct, (even if I am just silently reading it!) How interesting to find that Neithan sounds very much like our modern Nathan! (On that topic.... Valandil, is Huor really pronounced hyuor? It's not real important, but your observation caught my eye.)

As I read it, I tried not just to visualize the story, but to imagine, "how would this look as a movie?" Of course, The Death of Beleg was very dramatic, but at the end of the chapter there is an interesting "cleansing". I'm not entirely sure what to make of it; it's almost.... baptismal, I guess.
Among that which has already been mentioned in this thread, one of the scenes that I found quite rousing was chapter XII, The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin. Very exciting! Too bad the effort is found to be a waste.

I'm going to have to check out the Narn in Unfinished Tales. I realize CT left out a lot of (enriching) details that some would consider boring.
 
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Valandil's "Quickie" analysis of "Children of Hurin":

* Turin had three lame friends: Sador, Gwindor and Brandir - each of whom is portrayed as giving wise counsel, each of whose counsel Turin disregards, and each of whom dies - in large part (perhaps) because Turin didn't listen to their counsel.

:eek:

Thank you for that bit of insight. I had never noticed that before and once you point it out it is obvious.


Now here is question: How much different would Túrin's life have been if Húrin had died in battle with his brother?
 
Greetings, some. Well, I read the thing. The highlight ---> The lone footnote all about Mim, defending the guy, informing that only one tale tells that he went looking for Orcs to lead them to his house, but that another one merely informs that some Orcs caught him and forced him to reveal its location. Very entertaining.

Anyways, I didn't learn much that I didn't already know, but I had fun reading the thing. Even though it was all about Turin elfbane. I had been wishing for more cool information about Mim and Glaurung and Mablung (one of the few elves that I can tolerate), but I didn't get much. Mablung stole the show, for myself. Hurin seemed pretty cool, though, and I was sorry that it was only The Children Of Hurin, instead of Hurin And Stuff Directly Pertaining To Him, since I would have enjoyed seeing what he did after Mel released him. Mostly to read about Mim again.

Oo! Pretty pictures! My favorite ---> Glaurung burning stuff, of course. Mim was in there, but I could have used something with more personality. There are lots of pictures that I would have liked to see, but oh well. Anything else?
 
My neice dropped her copy of this book by teh house & I read it in a few days. It is how the story should have been released, instead in the poorly edited Silmarillion chapter or the raw story filled with footnotes in Unfinished Tales. Sure I knew the story, which prevented me from dropping my own quid on it, but it is a good and worthy read. I don't think it will have much pull to a person who is unfamiliar with Tolkien as it does throw names out rather quickly in the beginning.
 
The Force That Through the Black Sword Drives Turambar OR Psycho(mis)diagnosing JRRT

The comment was offered, and readily agreed with, some two months back toward the top of this thread, that Tolkien was driven to compose the tale of The Children of Hurin because he suffered from a "severe and lifelong" case of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, that only his need for some catharsis to purge the dark things "festering" in his soul can explain a preoccupation with "such intense themes of tragedy and death", that the imagination which gave birth to Arda and the Elder Days and the Rings of Power was moved not by Sub-Creative impulse but instead by a compulsion to "escape the real world". However belatedly, I must disagree. The notion is distorted, distorting, dismissive, and facile; what follows will take some pains to refute it. (I hope no further pain may be caused in the process.)

That Tolkien's experience in World War I had a profound impact, both personal and authorial, on his later life is an unquestionable and well-established fact. John Garth's brilliant Tolkien and the Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth (2003) lays out the matter most cogently -- and the class photograph on the inside of the dust-jacket alone is well worth the hardcover price, for you acquisitive bibliophiles. It's a looong way from what Garth recounts, however, to any credible diagnosis of PTSD, or "shell shock" as it was known at that time. George Carlin pointed out several years ago the difference between those two painfully honest and straightforward syllables and the far fuzzier and more indirect eight that we now employ to characterize the "syndrome". The condition itself, whatever length or number of words is used to describe it, was medically recognized in soldiers who'd seen service at the Battle of the Somme, and many were invalided home because of it; Lieutenant John Ronald Tolkien of the 11th Lancashire Fusiliers wasn't one of them. What sent him back to England on sick leave was trench fever, debilitating enough (and fortunately so, in retrospect) to pull him out of the forward lines, but brought on by filth and fleas and not by the terrors of combat. Beyond the general Hell which was the Western Front in 1916, there is no record that Tolkien was ever "horrifyingly traumatized" on the battlefield, and his medical disability was not based on shell shock.

That Tolkien was not moved to create Middle-earth by grief for the loss of his wife, an odd and anachronous notion that our dear Befuddled Barkeep puts forward multiple times, is confirmed by a cursory glance at the calendar. His beloved Edith died in 1971, by which time Tolkien had abandoned all but the most desultory work on his legendarium. In fact (as is also widely known), the central story of that mythology, one far more important to the larger narrative than is the tragedy of the Children of Hurin, derives its central character, Luthien Tinuviel, from the sight that John Ronald had of his beautiful young wife dancing in a grove of flowering hemlock trees, in 1917 when he was home on leave. His living love for her, and not lamentation for her death, was what made the tale of Beren and Luthien (the names beneath which John Ronald and Edith lie buried, side by side) the linchpin of the Great Tale of Arda.

That Tolkien's sorrow for the lost countryside of his childhood was not what prompted either his initial interest in the story of Turin or his return to the subject after completing The Lord of the Rings seems almost as easy to establish. The depth of that sadness, and the anger it gave rise to, are -- like the influence of his experiences in the First World War -- well-attested to and beyond debate; they find expression in many forms throughout his body of work. I've suggested elsewhere, as have others, that much of our author's pleasure in the march of the Ents upon Isengard, beyond reclaiming the narrative opportunity that Shakespeare squandered so shamefully in Macbeth, must have come from giving the trees he loved so well the chance to take their revenge on those who'd hacked and hewn them down so cruelly. From the burning sands of the Anfauglith to the Scouring of the Shire, Tolkien decried the wrack and wretchedness wrought by the Machine upon the living earth. This is hardly a theme which resonates in The Children of Hurin, however: even the fiery path of destruction that Glaurung burns in his unswerving course toward Brethil is given no particularly powerful emphasis, and the defilement of Eithel Ivrin is but a sad grace-note to the thunderous strains of Turin's ruin.

One more stroke to hammer home the point, with perhaps less bludgeon and blunt force than Morgoth's Grond upon the helm of Fingolfin, but with no less decisive result: Tolkien's first imaginative encounter with this tale, in the story of rash and hapless Kullervo in the Finnish folk-epic The Kalevala, came while he was still an undergraduate at Oxford in 1912-1913, three years at least before he went to war in France.

The penultimate comment in this over-dense post derives from John Garth, specifically the front flap of that dust-jacket aforementioned: "Tolkien used his mythic imagination not to escape from reality (emphasis mine), but to reflect and transform the cataclysm of his generation. While his contemporaries surrendered to disillusionment, he kept enchantment alive, reshaping an entire literary tradition into a form that resonates to this day." To the seductive appeal of disillusionment, one might add the tendency that some indulge in, avoiding "such intense themes of tragedy and death" because they're "just too depressing".

The last word I'll leave to John Ronald, from the Letters: "I object to the contemporary trend in criticism, with its excessive interest in the details of the lives of authors and artists. They only detract attention from an author's works, and end, as one now often sees, in becoming the main interest. But only one's Guardian Angel, or indeed God Himself, could unravel the real relationship between personal facts and an author's works. Not the author himself (though he knows more than any investigator), and certainly not so-called 'psychologists'."
 
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