Tolkien's Eden - The Fall of the Children of Ilúvatar

[Úlairi]

I Lantë Eruhínion​

Tamma - Vanima Mir Atta​

Ainur tirar Arda úsahtië
Rúcina i luhtanë
Mana tyarnë Eru anta i Atani cilmë?
Sí narntë ilya rúcina​

Translation:

Tool - Right in Two

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

This thread is quintessentially a derivative from this thread.


Was the continuous Falling of the Peoples of Arda due to the perversion and Marring of Arda by Morgoth?

As erma was Fallen; was therefore the hröa? As the hröa may also have been fallen; was thus the fëa tainted? Was the quasi-fission of the fëa and hröa through the Tainting of Arda the catalyst for the Fall of the Noldor, the Númenoreans, Arnor and many of the Children of Ilúvatar?
Were the Eruhíni the coveted jewel fused atop Morgoth's Ring?


Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Úlairi
Was the quasi-fission of the fëa and hröa through the Tainting of Arda the catalyst for the Fall of the Noldor, the Númenoreans, Arnor and many of the Children of Ilúvatar?

As for the Númenoreans and Arnor, definitely. As for the Fall of the Noldor, I don’t think you can heap the blame on Melkor’s "erma tampering".

Myths Transformed - Text XI


[On Earth - as opposed to Aman] After the vitality of the [Quendi] hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then the Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to ‘fade’, until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.

But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hröar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hröar aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension. [insertions mine]

Also;

So that all that happened in Aman was that this weakness of the Elvish hröar did not develop in the health of Aman and the Light of the Trees.

According to these quotes, it would appear that the hröar of the Eldar remained "undimmed in power", and were vitalized (or re-vitalized) when existing in Aman. This would make sense because the Eldar who remained in the Blessed Realm lived on in perpetual bliss (as far as anyone knows). This would also explain why the Elves of Middle Earth desired to sail West above all else. Upon returning to Aman, the weakened hröa would rejuvenate, and once again achieve harmony with the fëa.

Many reason that because they awoke in Middle Earth, and their hröar were fashioned from "the stuff" of the contaminated erma, the Quendi must possess an inherent "gene" so to speak, that will inexorably corrupt them. If they were to remain outside Aman for a long enough period of time, I might agree; but within the Blessed Realm this does not seem to be the case. The Quendi did exist in Middle Earth for many years before their exodus to Aman. They awoke about 4,300 years (solar equivalent) before the first rising of the Moon and the Sun (year 1 of the First Age), and arrived in Aman about 3,500 years (solar) before year 1 of the First Age. Fëanor was born about 500 years later in Aman. Thus, the hröar that may have been weakened for 800 years in Middle Earth had about 3,500 years to rejuvenate and heal in Aman before the Fall of the Noldor; and let’s not forget that the rebellion/fall of the Noldor happened within Aman.

So, ruling out the tainted hröa (even as a catalyst), we are left with only one other possibility: the fëa (or perhaps better said; the fëa-nor; meaning fire-fëa). As far as the Fall of the Noldor, I think the scenario can best be summed up in the little poem you wrote there; if you replace the Atani with the Noldor (or even fëa-nor). This was all about the fëa, the whole fëa, and nothing but the fëa.

 

[Úlairi]

As for the Númenoreans and Arnor, definitely. As for the Fall of the Noldor, I don’t think you can heap the blame on Melkor’s "erma tampering".

Also;[...]

According to these quotes, it would appear that the hröar of the Eldar remained "undimmed in power", and were vitalized (or re-vitalized) when existing in Aman. This would make sense because the Eldar who remained in the Blessed Realm lived on in perpetual bliss (as far as anyone knows). This would also explain why the Elves of Middle Earth desired to sail West above all else. Upon returning to Aman, the weakened hröa would rejuvenate, and once again achieve harmony with the fëa.

Many reason that because they awoke in Middle Earth, and their hröar were fashioned from "the stuff" of the contaminated erma, the Quendi must possess an inherent "gene" so to speak, that will inexorably corrupt them. If they were to remain outside Aman for a long enough period of time, I might agree; but within the Blessed Realm this does not seem to be the case. The Quendi did exist in Middle Earth for many years before their exodus to Aman. They awoke about 4,300 years (solar equivalent) before the first rising of the Moon and the Sun (year 1 of the First Age), and arrived in Aman about 3,500 years (solar) before year 1 of the First Age. Fëanor was born about 500 years later in Aman. Thus, the hröar that may have been weakened for 800 years in Middle Earth had about 3,500 years to rejuvenate and heal in Aman before the Fall of the Noldor; and let’s not forget that the rebellion/fall of the Noldor happened within Aman.

For one thing Illuin, I'm glad to see that you are posting back in my threads again. I greatly appreciate that. Whilst you and I may have certain opinions of each other I'm ecstatic that it can be put aside in the literary pursuit of understanding the mind of Tolkien and this topic in particular. In answer to what you have stipulated above; I am not entirely in agreeance especially in consideration of the inexorable corruption of the "Elvish gene" - which is per se a theory that I do agree with.

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): Laws B

Now the Eldar are immortal within Arda according to their right nature. But if a fëa (or spirit) indwells in and coheres with a hrondo [> hröa] (or bodily form) that is not of its own choice but ordained, and is made of the flesh or substance of Arda itself, then the fortune of this union must be vulnerable by the evils that do hurt to Arda, even if that union be by nature and purpose permanent.

Despite the permanent union of Elvish fëa and hröar they are always inherently subject to the Marring of Arda which occurred obviously, as you have already stated, before the Quendi came to reside within Aman. The quote refers to the fact that it must be vulnerable as it has been ordained by Ilúvatar (and this is also an aspect of the topic that I wish to discuss). Despite the rejuvenation of the hröar in Aman it is not re-fashioned to remove the presence of Morgoth in the erma that constructs them. There is no reference to this in the above excerpt provided by Illuin whatsoever. Whilst it appears that the Valar were capable of fusing the fëa and hröa into its original state of harmony- whether or not they could heal the hröa from the effect not that of the consumption of the hröa by the fëa but of the presence of intrinsic evil within Arda Marred by the hand of Melkor Morgoth.

This quote is quite intriguing:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): Laws B

Then Yavanna spoke, and though she was the spouse of Aulë she leaned rather to Ulmo. 'My lord Aulë errs,' she said, 'in that he speaks of Finwë and Míriel as being free in heart and thought from the Shadow, as if that proved that naught that befell them could come from the Shadow or from the marring of Arda. But even as the Children are not as we (who came from beyond Arda wholly and in all our being) but are both spirit and body, and that body is of Arda and by Arda was nourished: so the Shadow worketh not only upon spirits, but has marred the very hrón of Arda, and all Middle-earth is perverted by the evil of Melkor, who has wrought in it as mightily as any one among us here. Therefore none of those who awoke in Middle-earth, and there dwelt before they came hither, have come here wholly free. The failing of the strength of the body of Míriel may then be ascribed, with some reason, to the evil of Arda Marred, and her death be a thing unnatural.

It is therefore through the case of Míriel that we can see that despite the apparent healing of Aman she herself (and it says this in The Silmarillion) was "consumed of body and spirit" and this was attributable to The Marring of Arda by Melkor. It is quite unequivocally explicit in stipulating that none who come from Middle-earth to Aman are free from the Shadow. The following quote drives this cogent point home:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): FM 2

And the Valar were greatly concerned to see that all their labour for the guarding of Valinor was of no avail, to keep out evil and the shadow of Melkor, if any thing, living or unliving was brought thither out of Middle-earth and left free or unguarded; and they perceived at last how great was the power of Melkor in Arda, in the making of which was his part was such that all things, save in Aman alone, had an inclination to evil and to perversion from their right forms and courses. Wherefore those whose being began in Arda, and who moreover were by nature a union of spirit and body, drawing the sustenance of the latter from Arda Marred, must ever be, in some degree, liable to grief, to do or to suffer things unnatural; and though dwelling in Aman might be a guard against this evil, it was not a full cure, unless in long ages.

It was only in the making of things within Aman that were truly free of the Shadow inherent in Arda Marred. The Valar were incapable of keeping evil out of Aman if it came initially from Middle-earth. All things derived from the erma of Arda Marred and drew sustenance therefrom were always in some way inclined to committing evil (and thus Falling); which could not be completely driven out save through long ages. An age often lasts well over 3,500 years and it explicitly states ages.

This quote I find also to be of interest especially in the case of The Fall of the Noldor and Fëanor in particular:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

But by nature the fëar of Men were in much less strong control of their hröar than was the case with the Elves. Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar...

Hence it was through The Marring of Arda, the intrinsic unhealed separation of the hröar and fëar and The Failure of the Valar that resulted in Fëanor desiring to become his own master that led to The Fall of the Noldor and that the Elves too were very much a part of Morgoth's Ring despite the Power of Aman. What makes this aspect of the discussion so incredible is that this waning was Eru's (and not Morgoth's) Design (see Note 7 in Athrabeth Findrod Ah Andreth). This too, Illuin, is where I believe your second quote is of significant importance as it refers to the inherent healing of the weakness of the hröa but not its inclination and perversion to evil which is exactly what we see in the case of Fëanor. More salient is Death in Aman - the death of Míriel in Valimar. Even though it states in quotes used by Illuin that the fission of the body and spirit was resolved in Aman we still see a case where the Valar failed to prevent it entirely and as such it was considered unnatural.


...to be continued...

 

[Úlairi]

...continued...

So, ruling out the tainted hröa (even as a catalyst), we are left with only one other possibility: the fëa (or perhaps better said; the fëa-nor; meaning fire-fëa). As far as the Fall of the Noldor, I think the scenario can best be summed up in the little poem you wrote there; if you replace the Atani with the Noldor (or even fëa-nor). This was all about the fëa, the whole fëa, and nothing but the fëa.

So, as can bee seen from the quotes above The Tainting of the Hröa cannot be ruled out whatsoever as it was through the sustenance of the hröa from Arda Marred that perverted the fëa to evil regardless of where it dwelt within Arda and that such ailments could only were incurable by the Valar due to minor 'Melkorism' of the Elves in their desire to become master. The fëa was indestructible and impregnable; but it's 'goodness' was not inviolable and Morgoth's Ring was encrusted with the greatest of jewels - the Quendi. Morgoth knew that the only way to desecrate them was through the alduteration of the hröa through the corruption of erma.

As this waning was of the Ordinance of Eru was thus The Fall of the Noldor attributable therefore to him? Moreover was this then pre-destined (see the Ainulindalë)?

Oh, and Illuin, I understand completely that the previous discussion isn't over whatsoever - so I'm not being contentious in asking another question ; I'm simply stating it before I forget it again (I have a terrible memory when it comes to retaining concepts I develop in the typing of a post). I do apologize for the length also (I understand that reading quotes can be often arduous ).

Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Úlairi

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

But by nature the fëar of Men were in much less strong control of their hröar than was the case with the Elves. Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar...

Hence it was through The Marring of Arda, the intrinsic unhealed separation of the hröar and fëar and The Failure of the Valar that resulted in Fëanor desiring to become his own master that led to The Fall of the Noldor and that the Elves too were very much a part of Morgoth's Ring despite the Power of Aman.

You must remember however; this particular quote in context interprets "what Finrod believed to be true" (i.e. - his educated 'opinion'), and this was also at a time "prior to Finrod’s revelation" during his discussion with Andreth.... which happens here:

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth page 318

'Then not only the High Eldar are forgetful of their kin!’ said Finrod. 'But this is strange to me, and even as did your heart when I spoke of your unrest, so now mine leaps up as at the hearing of good news.'

Also;

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - Note 7

We are dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully 'physical' in bodily form. Much later, when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called 'waning' or 'fading' had become more effective, their views of the End of Arda, so far as it affected themselves, must have been modified.

Originally posted by Úlairi
All things derived from the erma of Arda Marred and drew sustenance therefrom were always in some way inclined to committing evil (and thus Falling)

Always in some way inclined to committing evil? Yes. The smoking gun, or "catalyst" responsible for the Fall of the Noldor? I don’t think so. All of the Elves in Aman were in bondage to a hröa that was tainted, but only the Noldor who followed Fëanor were so "inclined to committing evil", and actually went through with it. Even the Avari (i.e. Eöl) who had never set foot in Aman (whose hröar never received the healing benefits of the Blessed Realm), were appalled and disgusted by the evil deeds of the Noldor.

One can only assume what path Fëanor and the Noldor might have followed had their hröar been formed pure and untainted. Would Melkor’s lies and "influence" following his release have taken hold within the "mind" (fëa) of Fëanor if his physical body had been "unalloyed" with the contaminated Melk - ore? I’d certainly bet on it. I do not believe Fëanor rebelled; roused the Noldor; and instigated a Kinslaying because his hröar was tainted any more than I believe a random spree killer goes on a rampage because his mom smoked cigarettes and drank too many martinis while he was yet in the womb. That’s a weak excuse. There is no doubt in my mind that Fëanor would have snapped regardless, due to the chain reaction of extreme "external" circumstances that pushed him over the edge (including the evil spirit Melkor’s "external" meddling [fëa to fëa] which initially kindled his pride).

We also see that the fëa itself (apart from the hröar) is not immune to its own shortcomings:

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - Note 5

...The Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This willful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fëa , and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life.

Why would these "fëa" be refused further incarnate life? Because even if they were provided with perfect, bright, shiny, new untainted hröar; the "fëar" themselves are lemons.... factory defects. Time for a recall .

Originally posted by Úlairi
As this waning was of the Ordinance of Eru was thus The Fall of the Noldor attributable therefore to him? Moreover was this then pre-destined?

I think our only real difference in thought is that I personally do not "directly" associate this 'waning of the Elvish hröar' with The Fall of the Noldor as you do; though I agree with much of what you say; including the fact that the 'waning' was of the Ordinance of Eru:

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - Note 7

The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men.

I believe the Fall of the Noldor however was an exclusive, inimitable event that would have happened just as it did "apart from" whether or not the hröar was derived from the erma of Arda Marred. Of course, this is by no means an open and shut case on either side of the coin (yours or mine); and there is still so much room for discussion. As Tolkien states:

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - Appended Commentary

The Athrabeth is a conversation, in which many assumptions and steps of thought have to be supplied by the reader.

To be continued.......





PS - I’ll have to check this post out in the morning. I went out and had a little fun tonight; which essentially means: DANGER - IMPULSIVE RAMBLING AHEAD .

 

[Tyelkormo]

I believe the Fall of the Noldor however was an exclusive, inimitable event that would have happened just as it did "apart from" whether or not the hröar was derived from the erma of Arda Marred.

Exclusive and inimitable perhaps in that a whole lot of situations combined to cause it, some of which were exclusive to the Noldor. On the other hand, that is true almost exclusively for the Miriel/Indis constellation which gave some particular spice to family relations in the House of Finwe and the special interest Melkor took in this kin. The truly morally questionable acts, however, both the over-possessiveness and the willingness to kill for one's possessions by far are not exclusive to the Noldor, we still see the One Ring fuelling them thousands of years later.

 

[Illuin]

Hmmm. I guess I’ll go all the way and post my overall theory on this. Maybe I can also lure Úlairi back with a little supposition. Where is he anyway? He started this .

Originally posted by Tyelkormo
The truly morally questionable acts, however, both the over-possessiveness and the willingness to kill for one's possessions by far are not exclusive to the Noldor,

we still see the One Ring fuelling them thousands of years later.

Yes, with Men; not Elves. Men as a whole were "fallen"; and they were, for the most part "easy prey" for Morgoth; due to their inability to secure control over their hröar; unlike the Elves.

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - Commentary

[Melkor]…had introduced evil, or a tendency to aberration from the design, into all the physical matter of Arda. It was for this reason, no doubt, that he had been totally successful with men….
His [Melkor’s] power was wielded over matter, and through it…
But by nature the fëar of Men were in much less strong control of their hröar than was the case with the Elves.

This I alluded to already:

Originally posted by Úlairi
Was the quasi-fission of the fëa and hröa through the Tainting of Arda the catalyst for the Fall of the Noldor, the Númenoreans, Arnor and many of the Children of Ilúvatar?

Originally posted by Illuin
As for the Númenoreans and Arnor, definitely. As for the Fall of the Noldor, I don’t think you can heap the blame on Melkor’s "erma tampering".

Affixing the Fall of the Noldor to Melkor’s erma tampering is where the discrepancy lies IMO, on so many levels (I’ve already given some of my reasons in previous posts). There are bigger fish to fry concerning the Fall of the Noldor than merely the shortcomings of the "flesh". The "Miriel/Indis constellation" you mention was indeed one of those extreme "peripheral" circumstances I referred to; and was perhaps the primary link in the chain leading to the ensuing madness of Fëanor. But what about the ultimate picture; the meaning of it all; the design and fulfillment of Ilúvatar’s ultimate purpose?

Myths Transformed - Text VII

….it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come.

The Silmarillion - Of The Beginning Of Days

Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Ainulindalë

Lo! even we, Elves, have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for good or ill, and for turning things aside from the purpose of Valar or of Elves; so that it is said among us that Fate is not master of the children of Men; yet are they blind, and their joy is small, which should be great.

Unfinished Tales

But behold! in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach...Yet Doom is strong...And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfillment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble.

Notice especially in The Silmarillion quote; "Which is as fate to all things else". Men were able to shape their lives beyond the blueprint of the Music, which governs the fate of all other things in Arda...including the fate of the Noldor. Even though free will was granted to the Elves; their "allotted" freedom was still confined to the parameters of a "musical score" with finite dimensions. Disharmony had been woven into the Music; and thus into the destiny of all things; save the Second Born (the deliverers). Thus, the Fall of the Noldor was woven into the Music (i.e. the "extra-ordinary" chain of events that led to an inevitable outcome that was unavoidable). It was fate; destiny; an epic, pivotal event that was necessary for history to unfold in a way that would bring about the consummation of Eru’s ultimate plan. It was no accident, nor was it simply falling victim to temptations of the hröar. On a superficial level; it would "appear" Arda Marred was to blame; considering the fate of the Elves (hröar AND fëar) was intimately coupled with the fate of Arda itself (for Men, it was only the hröar - which accounts for the disharmony between their hröar and fëar; which often led to their undoing). But that’s thinking small. The culmination of Ilúvatar’s overall plan was to be fulfilled regardless of whether or not Arda was marred. Melkor’s arms didn’t reach that high in the grand scheme of things. Melkor was just a servant of Ilúvatar like all other created beings who was responsible for fulfilling the negative part of Eru’s plan; which in the end, turns out positive.

 

[Tyelkormo]

Yes, with Men; not Elves. Men as a whole were "fallen"; and they were, for the most part "easy prey" for Morgoth; due to their inability to secure control over their hröar; unlike the Elves.

This is a supposition that is questionable not the least on statistical levels. We hear much more about men in the later ages, so there's a classical "publication bias". That, and of course we'd expect a lot of those elves who survive that long in M-E to actually have learned something over the ages.

This I alluded to already:



Affixing the Fall of the Noldor to Melkor’s erma tampering is where the discrepancy lies IMO, on so many levels (I’ve already given some of my reasons in previous posts). There are bigger fish to fry concerning the Fall of the Noldor than merely the shortcomings of the "flesh".

Ah, but you mingle two very different things here: Melkor's tampering in general, and Melkor's very specific dealings with the Noldor. Who taught them to make weapons fit for war? He did

The "Miriel/Indis constellation" you mention was indeed one of those extreme "peripheral" circumstances I referred to; and was perhaps the primary link in the chain leading to the ensuing madness of Fëanor. But what about the ultimate picture; the meaning of it all; the design and fulfillment of Ilúvatar’s ultimate purpose?

Notice especially in The Silmarillion quote; "Which is as fate to all things else". Men were able to shape their lives beyond the blueprint of the Music, which governs the fate of all other things in Arda...including the fate of the Noldor. Even though free will was granted to the Elves; their "allotted" freedom was still confined to the parameters of a "musical score" with finite dimensions. Disharmony had been woven into the Music; and thus into the destiny of all things; save the Second Born (the deliverers). Thus, the Fall of the Noldor was woven into the Music (i.e. the "extra-ordinary" chain of events that led to an inevitable outcome that was unavoidable). It was fate; destiny; an epic, pivotal event that was necessary for history to unfold in a way that would bring about the consummation of Eru’s ultimate plan. It was no accident, nor was it simply falling victim to temptations of the hröar. On a superficial level; it would "appear" Arda Marred was to blame; considering the fate of the Elves (hröar AND fëar) was intimately coupled with the fate of Arda itself (for Men, it was only the hröar - which accounts for the disharmony between their hröar and fëar; which often led to their undoing). But that’s thinking small. The culmination of Ilúvatar’s overall plan was to be fulfilled regardless of whether or not Arda was marred. Melkor’s arms didn’t reach that high in the grand scheme of things. Melkor was just a servant of Ilúvatar like all other created beings who was responsible for fulfilling the negative part of Eru’s plan; which in the end, turns out positive.

In a way, I agree with you, but not with your line of conclusion. The culmination of Iluvatar's overall plan was to be fulfilled and in the end everything will turn out to be the instrument of his plan. But he doesn't do micromanagement. He speaks of each theme having its uttermost source in him - but not being directly his creation. As can be seen from Aule's creation of the Dwarves, that does not mean that others cannot second-guess him and TRY to work independently of him. However, in the end, their work will not be able to derail his plan, but rather further it, in ways they did not anticipate.

Think of it like a narrowing board of nails: Throw in a ball, and in the end, there's plenty of ways for the ball to jump from nail to nail. But in the end, they will all end up at the same spot. If they jump a lot to the right initially, in the end, they will be guided towards the middle again by the narrowing frame. And each jump, no matter in which direction, brings you further towards that spot, because regardless of it going left or right, it will also go down.

By your model, "free will" wouldn't really be worth the name and culprits could rightly claim themselves to be blameless and shove all blame onto Illuvatar. For free will to make a sense on an ethical-philosophical level, there must be a choice to "do the right thing". I believe that the freedom to make such a choice exists, and I think that Tolkien does, too, because he constantly stresses the need to make sacrifices, to consciously and willingly relinquish something for the benefit of others. If it was preordained whether you sacrifice or not, the act is meaningless and there is no real will in it.

Making this choice, I believe, is a key factor in how the ball moves on the board of nails. If you are willing to make sacrifices, it will move smoothly. If you are not, the road will be the more painful. Due to the themes of Melkor, no road will be painless, but the more selfishly you act, the more painful will the getting back on track be. The fact that acts of evil bring about good is quite evident from the attack on the Havens: Even though it is a kinslaying, it in the end brings about the events which allow Earendil to reach Valinor and move the Valar to intervene. It's impossible to thwart Illuvatar's plans - it's not impossible to try. But through a course of events you did not anticipate, in the end you will actually propagate the events towards HIS goal. You think you are moving towards derailing his plans by having the ball jump right - but it doesn't just move right, it moves right and down, and thus closer to the end point. Melkor thought he was working towards his own goals in slaying the trees and Finwe and stealing the Silmarils. But what did he achieve? He brought the Noldor back into Middle-Earth, not only giving him a lame foot in the end and a scarred face thanks to Thorondor, but in launching this course of events, he actually brought about the straw that broke the back of the camel for the Valar and moved them to solve the problem on a more permanent basis.

Hope this was intelligible - 2AM is not precisely the best time to go into philosophical models.

 

[Úlairi]

***Watch this space guys***

I was hoping you two would enter into a more in-depth discussion as I observed but it appears that I'll have to reignite the thread from its dying embers. I'll be back!

Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Úlairi
I was hoping you two would enter into a more in-depth discussion as I observed but it appears that I'll have to reignite the thread from its dying embers. I'll be back!

We were waiting for you. You're up. Didn't want to cut in line .

 

[Úlairi]

We were waiting for you. You're up. Didn't want to cut in line .

Well I promise to get back to you on this one guys (I think this is probably the best active thread on the boards at the moment if I do say so myself )... just not today.

I... am... just... soooo... hung... over!!!

Think I might go throw up. Intellectually, I couldn't hit water if I jumped out of a boat at the moment...

Btw, Celegorm (), you're quite the addition to the forum my friend. Look forward to seeing you around the boards...


Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Tyelkormo]

Btw, Celegorm (), you're quite the addition to the forum my friend. Look forward to seeing you around the boards...

Just wait until you taste my temper

 

[Úlairi]

You must remember however; this particular quote in context interprets "what Finrod believed to be true" (i.e. - his educated 'opinion'), and this was also at a time "prior to Finrod’s revelation" during his discussion with Andreth.... which happens here:




Also;

Yes, but the quote that I employed in argument was from Tolkien's Commentary of the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth which is the author's own perspective of the concepts elucidated in The Debate. Despite the fact that as the waning process propogated further toward the End of Arda and that Elvish thought would have 'changed' on the matter, thus being modified; it does not mean that this contention (of Tolkien's nonetheless) has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever. In actuality, as Tolkien didn't explore the matter further I would contend that this was his final perspective on the matter - it is more than likely he was leaving himself a loophole to give him a little leway to crawl through if textual contradiction eventuated.

Always in some way inclined to committing evil? Yes. The smoking gun, or "catalyst" responsible for the Fall of the Noldor? I don’t think so. All of the Elves in Aman were in bondage to a hröa that was tainted, but only the Noldor who followed Fëanor were so "inclined to committing evil", and actually went through with it. Even the Avari (i.e. Eöl) who had never set foot in Aman (whose hröar never received the healing benefits of the Blessed Realm), were appalled and disgusted by the evil deeds of the Noldor.

And (as I can see below) this is where the eternal concept of Free Will rears its majestic head as I knew it would... eventually.

Free Will is still free without inherent perversion to evil. Eru, being omnibenevolent, is continuously described throughout all the works of Tolkien as being "free". Eru is forever Untainted by the evil of Melkor and Arda Marred as he is First and Foremost - transcendent - however, (H)e is the continuance and perpetuation of the fulfilment of Arda's Destiny (the Oienkarmë Eruo) and thus evil exists within his Thought; and this is the point that Celegorm alludes to below (to an extent). Evil is extrinsic of Eru, however it has its "uttermost source in [him]". Due to this omnibenevolence and the existence of Free Will it is only through the extrinsic existence of evil and the inherent perversion to it and the acting upon Choice that generates evil within Arda. This existence of evil (Melkor being Proto-evil) is prpogated through Arda Marred and I would therefore reason that both Free Will (Cilmë = Choosing) and Evil were catalysed by this Tainting. The tainting of the fëa is caused by the tainting of the hröa. Both Aulë and Ulmo are in concord with this belief:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): Laws A

'... [Aulë:] Therefore the greatness of the child must proceed from his will directly, and be intended for the good of the Eldar and of all of Arda.' ... [Ulmo:] '... For if the death of Míriel was otherwise, and came from beyond Arda (as a new thing having no cause in the past) it would not bring grief or doubt. For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them. ... The coming of Fëanáro must proceed certainly from the will of Eru; but I hold that the marring of his birth comes of the Shadow, and is a portent of evils to come. For the greatest are the most potent also for evil.

One can only assume what path Fëanor and the Noldor might have followed had their hröar been formed pure and untainted. Would Melkor’s lies and "influence" following his release have taken hold within the "mind" (fëa) of Fëanor if his physical body had been "unalloyed" with the contaminated Melk - ore? I’d certainly bet on it. I do not believe Fëanor rebelled; roused the Noldor; and instigated a Kinslaying because his hröar was tainted any more than I believe a random spree killer goes on a rampage because his mom smoked cigarettes and drank too many martinis while he was yet in the womb. That’s a weak excuse.

I have an enormous amount of respect for this position... in the 'real world'. However, in The Legendarium apropos of the above quote this acknowledgment of the separation of the fëa and hröa and hröa-consumption through The Marring of Arda and the evil that is wrought by it can only lead to the supposition that it was indeed responsible for The Fall of the Noldor. It appears however, that Tolkien as author has put a restriction on the affinity to evil of the Eruhíni to the greatest of them - which, of course, is arguably the Noldor. This is why the quote above about minor-Melkorism is considerably important and has a strong bearing on this debate. Due to inherent potency the realisation of Mastery of Arda is more readily achievable and this perversion to evil more inveigling because of it. Pride cometh before the Fall - it's as simple as that.

There is no doubt in my mind that Fëanor would have snapped regardless, due to the chain reaction of extreme "external" circumstances that pushed him over the edge (including the evil spirit Melkor’s "external" meddling [fëa to fëa] which initially kindled his pride).

Couldn't disagree more. The Tainting of the Hröa through Arda Marred generated this intrinsic perversion to evil which resided with the fëa. This inclination to evil must first be actually present (or existent) otherwise Fëanor would not have comprehended Melkor's seduction and not have appealed to this most significant of requirements for Fall - pride. It would have thus been beyond Fëanor's understanding - just as Melkor was beyond Manwë's:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)

Wherefore in a while he was allowed to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that his evil had been cured. For he himself was free from evil and could not comprehend it ...

We also see that the fëa itself (apart from the hröar) is not immune to its own shortcomings:

Why would these "fëa" be refused further incarnate life? Because even if they were provided with perfect, bright, shiny, new untainted hröar; the "fëar" themselves are lemons.... factory defects. Time for a recall .

You cannot separate (entirely) the fëa from the hröa to make it more conducive to your argument. The fission of the Two is what results in the inclination to Evil and as the fëa is also extrinsic of Arda it is therefore The Marring of Arda and The Tainting of the Hröa that is responsible for the affinity of the fëa to evil.

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): Laws A

'... Yet they came into Arda Marred, and were destined to do so, and to endure the Marring, even though they came in the beginning from beyond Eä. ... For though by their prime nature, unmarred, they rightly dwell as spirit and body coherent, yet these are two things, not the same...'

As fused and coherent constituents of being, to refute the marring of the hröa in the context of the fëa is, in my opinion, to err in the understanding of the presence of evil within Arda and the way in which it acts upon the cognizant creatures of Arda. Even Men are akin to the Eldar in this respect. This is however, why they are more readily adulterated and perverted to Melkor as they lack the same level of control.

I think our only real difference in thought is that I personally do not "directly" associate this 'waning of the Elvish hröar' with The Fall of the Noldor as you do; though I agree with much of what you say; including the fact that the 'waning' was of the Ordinance of Eru:

Come now, Illuin; you and I both know there is more to the waning of the Elves than just the hröa! However, I do agree with the Ordinance of Eru, but perhaps within a different context.

I believe the Fall of the Noldor however was an exclusive, inimitable event that would have happened just as it did "apart from" whether or not the hröar was derived from the erma of Arda Marred. Of course, this is by no means an open and shut case on either side of the coin (yours or mine); and there is still so much room for discussion. As Tolkien states:



To be continued.......

Exclusive and inimitable perhaps in that a whole lot of situations combined to cause it, some of which were exclusive to the Noldor. ... The truly morally questionable acts, however, both the over-possessiveness and the willingness to kill for one's possessions by far are not exclusive to the Noldor, we still see the One Ring fuelling them thousands of years later.

...to be continued...

 

[Úlairi]

...continued...

It isn't exclusive or inimitable. It is now necessary to bring in what I believe is the ultimate distinction between Christian (Catholic) Theology and The Legendarium:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): FM

In the draft letter of 1958 cited above in reference to the death of Míriel my father continued:
I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may perhaps be called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels': a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellious, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable.

IF NOT INEVITABLE. Tolkien was undeniably and irrefutably a genius. Unequivocally. Through the subcreative element preceding Creation itself Tolkien delineates the inherent flaws in his Myth - although deliberate flaws (and also shows a deep respect for the concept that evil was truly extrinsic of Free Will in Christian Theology). Evil, ultimately, is attributable solely to Eru which questions this concept of omnibenevolence (but this is another matter). The Fall is far from exclusive and imitable as evil already resides within Cilmë. It is only that which comes from beyond Arda that is free from evil - a creation extrinsic and after the subcreation of evil. The Fall must therefore be caused by the subcreation - the hröa or perhaps moreso the fact that this untainted entity comes to reside within Arda Marred and is clothed with erma which is then fused to its own being. The operation of Original Sin exists in a different context within Tolkien's Mythology - the spirit comes into contact with evil through the world instead of the taint perpetuated through the original act of evil. It is this fusion that makes evil operable through Free Will instead of the tainting of the soul in Christian Theology. Possessiveness is simply a derivative of this.

Notice especially in The Silmarillion quote; "Which is as fate to all things else". Men were able to shape their lives beyond the blueprint of the Music, which governs the fate of all other things in Arda...including the fate of the Noldor. Even though free will was granted to the Elves; their "allotted" freedom was still confined to the parameters of a "musical score" with finite dimensions.

Yes, but so was Man's. Man's hröa and thus fëa was also tainted and the inherent residence of evil and Choice was created through the Music also. Man's Fall was also part of the Music because Arda Marred was too - but it can be overcome as it not the Fate of Man to succumb to their Downfall; but to rise above it - Turambar. Their freedom was still thus the same to the extent that their created Choice was also the same - it is just that they were not subject to the Fate of the Music. Their choices simply led to a greater Fate - the fulfilment of Arda Healed. The Thought of Ilúvatar (and the Oienkarmë Eruo) extended beyond the Music of the Ainur to include the Third Theme and the Visions outside of it. Nothing could be created without its uttermost source in Eru - including the Will of Man. Considerably then, Men's Will was part of the Music of Eru.

Disharmony had been woven into the Music; and thus into the destiny of all things; save the Second Born (the deliverers). Thus, the Fall of the Noldor was woven into the Music (i.e. the "extra-ordinary" chain of events that led to an inevitable outcome that was unavoidable). It was fate; destiny; an epic, pivotal event that was necessary for history to unfold in a way that would bring about the consummation of Eru’s ultimate plan.

Yes, but as aforementioned this consummation was beyond the Ainulindalë and Eru's Ultimate Plan was fulfilled through Men.

The Silmarillion: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Little he [Melkor] knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed with his own thought in the Music he had paid small heed to the Third Theme of Ilúvatar...

Men are the Third Theme - as is their Destiny of Deliverance.

The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur

...Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

Arising and through a singular chord Eru ceases the Music permanently. Ultimately, at the End, he takes dominion of Eä after the fulfilment of the Third Theme and the Deliverance of Men. But this is all sidetracking...

It was no accident, nor was it simply falling victim to temptations of the hröar. On a superficial level; it would "appear" Arda Marred was to blame; considering the fate of the Elves (hröar AND fëar) was intimately coupled with the fate of Arda itself (for Men, it was only the hröar - which accounts for the disharmony between their hröar and fëar; which often led to their undoing). But that’s thinking small. The culmination of Ilúvatar’s overall plan was to be fulfilled regardless of whether or not Arda was marred. Melkor’s arms didn’t reach that high in the grand scheme of things. Melkor was just a servant of Ilúvatar like all other created beings who was responsible for fulfilling the negative part of Eru’s plan; which in the end, turns out positive.

In The Legendarium there is something beyond mere temptation - it is this fusion of fëa and hröa that induces evil within Arda and the ensuing Fall of the Eruhíni inevitable. Arda Marred was woven into the Music through the creation of Melkor and it was the Free Will of the Ainur (restricted through the Thought of Eru) that ultimately determined the Destiny of Arda. Arda Marred had its uttermost source in Eru when he proclaimed Eä! It is therefore irrelevant whether it would be fulfilled regardless of Arda Marred but it was fulfilled regarding Arda Marred. Arda Marred was derived from the Thought of Eru and was thus also a part of his final plan. Arda Marred was necessary to the achievement of Eru's Designs - Arda Healed.

I have much more to say with no time to say it. I hope this is enough to keep the discussion active... for now... but... I"LL BE BACK!

Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Bucky]

Were the Eruhíni the coveted jewel fused atop Morgoth's Ring?

Please don't use Elvish, Ulari....

I'm totally lost....

Translation, please.

 

[Úlairi]

Were the Eruhíni the coveted jewel fused atop Morgoth's Ring?

Please don't use Elvish, Ulari....

I'm totally lost....

Translation, please.

LOL. I'll do you a deal Bucky. If you spell my alias as Ulairi then I'll translate:

Eruhíni = Children of Eru.

The questions as to whether they were the jewel atop Morgoth's Ring = Was the perversion and consequent Fall of the Children of Ilúvatar achieved through The Marring Arda? Were they Morgoth's Silmaril in a sense?

Cheers,

Úlairi.

 

[Illuin]

Some great posts here; but after reading all of them, I am not the least bit persuaded to give my working model a facelift. I’ve presented the whole enchilada exhaustively; and my position stands firm as is

 

[Úlairi]

Nice way to end the thread there, Big Blue.

I actually believe Celegorm's analysis of your Fate v Free Will concepts are far more mythologically correct in terms of what Tolkien considered of his own Legendarium - especially as he elucidated upon the same matter itself.

Cheers,

Úlairi.