Are you hittin' the road for a few days? What's up with the short duplicate posts?
PS - You never chimed back in with your Air, Fire, Water thread either 
I think I'll probably be hittin' the road for much longer than that, see
here.
Despite the fact that you're comment in
The Fate of the Ring was dripping with amusing sarcasm you
deserve a response in this thread, Big Blue. I refuse to be hypocritical in calling all of you apathetic and then ultimately being apathetic myself. So here goes...
Aside from the
Valar and
Maiar who entered into Eä, are there actually other individual
"Ainur" that roam the
Halls of
Eru outside the
realm of time and space? I have always thought of the
Ainulindalë as Eru’s creative thought process; and the
Music Of The Ainur representing Eru taking a step back and listening to (reflecting on) his own thoughts (i.e. listening to the music).
I would have to agree with this observation based upon the language used in the
Ainulindalë by
Tolkien:
The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur; the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought. ... for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came...
I especially love the phrase "
offspring of his thought"; so they are, in a sense, his Children also; but they are far more derivative from Eru as a source as they almost appear to constitute the
consciousness of Eru as a whole. Yet, incredibly, they are still separate
conscious beings of their very own. I personally believe that Tolkien may have been one of the greatest philosophers of the Twentieth Century.
When he was satisfied with his ideas/plans regarding his upcoming creative
"project" (Eä and Arda), he visualized how the finished product might look (
The Vision) in his mind; much like a painter visualizes his finished painting before he begins to paint (though it may look quite different when he is finished with the "actual" painting). Setting things in motion, he then permitted some of his finest
brainchildren (creative thoughts) to leave his mind as individual entities (Valar and Maiar) and enter into time and space (Eä) and serve as his creative tools (or paintbrushes) as it were.
This is where I find myself at odds with you in your assertion that once they entered Eä they
became their own entities, Big Blue. I would contend, based upon the wording of the
Ainulindalë, that they were already s
eparate and
individual.
The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur
But for a long while they sang only each alone ... To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge ... He had gone often alone into the Void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void ... Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Now I understand the brilliant concept that I anticipate you will present that Melkor, as a part of Eru's creative process represented the dark side that resides within all Being - that seeks the Void in a spiritual sense, and thus Melkor is indeed simply a constituent of the Being of Eru. However, if this were so, then Melkor would understand entirely that, being part of Being (a little wordplay
), the Flame Impersishable resides within Eru - Melkor himself. If Eru in his own existence had constituents that did not comprehend their Source (not their thought process) then Eru would not be infinite as he was in some way bounded by his own thought; thus being against the philosophical maxim of a Creator. Melkor seeking it within the Void was an independent act outside the Thought of Eru (apart from the concept of Fate). It is here where the independent thought of Eru and Melkor is intrinsically s
eparate.
*wipes sweat off forehead* I hope that made
some sense.
Do you think the "other" Ainur mentioned who did not enter Eä (time and space) are simply thoughts that remain in the mind of Eru; rather than (literally isolated) individual entities that are roaming around outside of time and space? Other than the mind of Eru, what really is outside of time and space anyway (time and space pretty much covers everything, does it not
)? And what in fact is
"The Void"? Is
The Void actually within the mind of Eru, symbolic of a "place" where Eru blots out bad thoughts (Ainur) and stores them in the very back of his mind?
I particularly like Alcuin's concept of contrapositive's here in reference to the following quote (however, it is unlikely that it is a complete or even correct econtrapositive).
The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #181: To Michael Straight [drafts]
These [Ainur] take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered the world.
Thus, according to this logic, those who remained did so
by their own will. Having
separate will would imply that they were also
separate Beings. But the premise of a
Created Being is
independent will anyway.
The quote above goes on to say:
The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #181: To Michael Straight [drafts]
... and were for the Valar an incalculable element [the Children of Ilúvatar]: that is they were rational creatures of free will in regard to God, of the same historical rank as the Valar...
This
rank of
rational sentience equates Valar (Ainur that descended into Arda and yes, I can see here that you would say that through descending they
became independent - but just see above, Big Blue
) to creatures of free will - independent with
regard to God. I would contend that this contextually conveys Ainur as being free absolutely from their inception.
Melkor's
separation from Eru before the creation of Arda and the philosophical implications of him seeking out the Flame Imperishable in the Void is enough to stipulate that the Ainur from the beginning were creatures of free will independent from the Thought of Eru and capable of acting against him.
We could always look at it from a simpler perspective:
The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur...
Eru
was before the creation of the Ainur; which he
made - thus being
separate of himself.
The Void is a concept I've struggled with for aeons. I would have to, on its basest of levels, conceive that it is simply the absence of Eru - or the Flame Imperishable. A contrived place where Eru
chooses not to Be. However, as Arda is created within the Void perhaps a more astute observation would be that it Is where Eru's creation has not yet been
realized or
fulfilled. A place made separate from Eru (as he is supposedly infinite) where his creation is to take place - a way for him to remain
outside of it - which Tolkien oft refers to as being
beyond the Confines of the World. This is why Melkor was so highly flawed in his pursuit of the Flame Imperishable within the Void and thus Fell. If you wish, I'll give you copyright to make the literary comparison of
Melkor and Fëanor - The Light and the Fall (that's what I would name the thread) based on the quote above from the
Ainulindalë about Melkor seeking Light (the Flame Imperishable) and
Falling and the beginnings of
Fëanor's Fall based on this quote:
The Silmarillion: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that they light within them was not his own.
Both sought to be Creators in their own right and consequently Fell. Melkor wishing to bring others into Being with the "
Light" of the Flame Imperishable; therefore assuming it as his own and Fëanor forgetting that the Flame Imperishable - housed within the Silmarils (see
The Life of the Silmarils thread) was not his own - also assuming it unto himself. Ironic that both were the proto-Fallers, isn't it?
However, back to the discussion at hand, there is also (philosophically as well) the issue of if the Void was the birthplace of Arda (for the specific reason of Creation) then why is there still a Void in existence afterward? As Melkor is thrust into the Void. Perhaps the Void indeed remained to contain the prodigal offspring. I let you get into that one a little deeper on your own, Big Blue.
Adios Amigo,
Úlairi.
