The Gondorian Council--Worthy?

[Beleg]

On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North kindom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendans of Isuldur, and as the husband of Firiel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Peledur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anarion, to whom Isuldur relinquished the realm. in Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isuldur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day as the head of the line of the kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high King of all lands of Dunedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isuldur departed to the take up the High Kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.

Appendix A, (iv) Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion; Reutrn of the King which constitutes the Third Volume of J.R.R.T's epic Lord of the Rings.

In further events we see that the claim of Arvedui is rejected and Kingship is passed onto Earnil the victorious captain.
My Question is, given the laws and the present situation, should the Council have accepted Arvedui's claim, even though he belonged to the North Kingdom?

 

[Inderjit S]

What makes this more interesting that Malbeth the Seer said if the Dunedain took the chance to be re-united uder Arvedui then they would prosper, again. It seems they took the 'more hopeful' course.

 

[HLGStrider]

I see a little bit of stubbornness in Gondor, but I've always believed that Isildur's heir could not rein until Isildur's harm had been undone. It's never directly stated, but I've always felt it had to be so.

 

[Inderjit S]

No one in Godnor knew that he had taken the ring (if that is what you mean by 'Isildur's harm'.) Boromir states so in the Council.

 

[HLGStrider]

That's not exactly what I meant. I meant that fate sealed it and the Gondorians were working out the doom without knowing it.

It was sort of a curse.

 

[Lantarion]

yeah I would agree. Among all the politics and political history I think Toklien wanted a purely 'spiritual' or belief-oriented underlying fault or reason for the passing-over.

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Or we could simply see it realisticly. A reuniffication would not simply being saying poof, you are King of both Kingdoms. They were by that time two different states and it would have taken a long time to organize a mergingof the states, not to talk about the conflicts between the gentry that would naturally occur. The ruler would have to balance between the both Kingdoms, hsi men in the north dissatisfied that he doesn't give them enough influence, the ones in the south complaining that he supports the northmen too much. Not to talk about all the work needed to make administration work efficiently and cooperatively. The merging was made easier in the third age because there were no claims for hte crown but for Aragorn's, the gentry supported him and the north was gone. Moreover, Gondor was threatened and needed a strong ruler, but at the same time the future looked bright.

Húrin Thalion

 

[HLGStrider]

I agree. . .

It would've been probably impossible for Aragorn to gain the throne unless he came as a hero. . .and I mean a big hero. Even after defeating the Corsairs for Gondor, he still would've been only accepted by the people. The political structure, the stewards especially, wouldn't have been thrilled to give everything up.

Denethor would never have given his place without a fight, maybe not even after the fall of Sauron. He didn't respect Aragorn's claim (see his speech before he burns himself).

Aragorn had to be A. The man of the hour and B. facing a less ambitious steward (ie Faramir).

 

[Inderjit S]

The decision to appoint Eärnil II was a logical political one. Why? Well, even though Isildur held himself to be High-King of Arnor and Gondor we don't know if his descendants continued this. Certainly after Earendur and the ensuing feudal war within 'Arnor', the issue of High-Kingship in terms of Gondor would have been pretty much forgotten. No Arnorian King is said to claim the throne a Gondor when any of the King's didn't have a child. (Tarannon Falastur, Narmacil or when Telemnar I and his children perished in the Great Plague. Or even in the Kin-strife, though at this time the Dunedain of Gondor were divided with the supporters of Eldacar and the confederation of various descendants of Anarion, who removed to Umbar. Castamir was the chief of these and the one who took the Kingship from Eldacar.

It seems that Ondoher was attempting to secure better relations between Arnor and Gondor, hence his marrying of his daughter, Firiel to Arvedui, the King of Arthedain. But Ondoher and his sons were slain in the Battle with the Wainraiders. Eärnil in effect saved Gondor after first defeating the Southern Force and then routing the Northern one when they were feasting. He was a hero.

We then get two people claiming the kingship. Eärnil, the captain of Gondor, has just saved Gondor, descended from Meneldil, who Isildur relinquished the realm to (though he still claimed over-lordship over the realm), known and loved by the Dunedain of Gondor, and descended from the male line, from Arciryas, brother of Narmacil II. Descendance from the male line is important in Gondor. In Numenor, Tar-Aldarion changed the laws of succession to get back at his wife, so Ancalime could become Queen. Of course unlike any male heirs to the throne, the female ones could refuse the sceptre, as did the sisters of Tar-Anarion. But in M-E, where war was ravaged, this law seems to have been rejected and passed over. Women weren't good war time rulers. So descendent from the female line seems to have been rejected, thus one of Arvedui's claims, that he is married to the last child of Ondoher cannot be seen as being a legitimate claim. Tarannon Falastur was succeeded by his nephew of his brother, Narmacil I by his younger brother and Telemnar by the son of his brother.

The people of Gondor at that time thought little of Arthedain too. Plus the claim of Earnil was universally accepted and supported. Plus the fact that Pelendur, Earnil's steward, was a great supporter of the claim of Earnil shows there may have been some selfish elements to the rejection of the claim of Arvedui, maybe he would have less power/influnece under Arvedui or maybe it was because he was close friends with Earnil. This was a few hundred years before the death of Ondoher. (Of course the house of Stewards had begun with Hurin, steward of Minardil, who was slain by the Corsairs and it was in his sons time, King Telemnar that the Great Plague came and Tarondor removed to Minas Anor (Tirith).)

The choice to appoint Earnil was the more sensible one. There was no 'spritual' reason behind it, it was simple politics.

 

[HLGStrider]

I still think there was fate involved, and seeing as fate can act through politics you'll have a hard time denying it.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Inder, after reading your excellent (as always! ) posts, I'd say that if THAT is politics then politics must be really a dirty thing!
I don't see much reason in Gondor's decision except for the fact that they just supported the one closer to them, the one who won victoriously for Gondor, the one whom they knew ... I'd say this looks more likechauvinism and nationalism than thinking globally and defending the interests of the whole nation - the ex-Numenoreans.
Isn't it a pity!

 

[Beleg]

If fate was involved in everything and faith spurred every event, then what's the use of freewill? [In context with Middle-earth, Not Earth, not Arda but Middle-earth.]

 

[HLGStrider]

I think, Beleg, that you see many examples of curses and dooms in Tolkien. That they are there doesn't mean there is no free-will, of course.

The council did have other things in mind when it made the call, but there was also a curse to it. A doom.

The evil of Isildur had to be undone.

There were obvious political reasons. There was, of course, snobbery. Even in his madness, you have to put something behind Denethor's death speech about the house of Isildur and the "upstart" from the North. It was probably an old feeling.

However, I still think there was "fate" behind it. Whether this fate forced or just encouraged or did nothing of the sort and was just there, a premonition, I believe it was part of the issue.

 

[Odin]

I saw someone else raise a thread from the dead earlier today, so I think I'm allowed to do so as well.

In the case of Arvedui, the Council of Gondor made the correct choice without a doubt. From their perspective, the throne of Gondor was now empty and needed a new King. Isildur committed the rule of Gondor to the House of Anarion and chose to rule the North himself. Thus, Gondor was to be ruled by the heirs of Anarion and Arnor to be ruled by the heirs of Isildur. Arvedui was effectively saying that he wasn't happy ruling just Arnor anymore, which had largely fallen into ruin, leaving it a shadow of it's former self. Arvedui was showing the desperation of the North in his greed-driven claim to the Throne of Gondor. For nearly two thousand years, the heirs of Isildur were content ruling Arnor, their kingdom. All of a sudden, one of the heirs of Isildur sees an opening in Gondor that he thinks he can use to take the throne and use the might of Gondor to save his crumbling realm of Arnor.

Arvedui had never even entered Gondor before, he had never fought for the South-Kingdom and had nothing to do with it, aside from marrying the daughter of the former King. When faced with a sudden claim to the throne from this stranger from another kingdom, the Council of Gondor was well within it's rights to deny Arvedui's presumptuous claim and give the rule of Gondor to a surviving heir of the House of Anarion, to whom the rule of Gondor had been committed to by Isildur himself in the distant past. Greed was the primary motivation behind Arvedui's claim. Why else would he suddenly want to rule a realm that he had never had anything to do with.

Indeed, Arvedui knew his claim was tenuous, and so he attempted to tack on his marriage to the Princess to make his claim seem more legitimate. It had the effect of doing the opposite, as marriage to the Princess did not give Arvedui any claim over the throne whatsoever. His wife, Princess Firiel might have had a chance at claiming her father's throne and becoming Queen of Gondor. But there had not been a single ruling queen in Arnor or Gondor for all of it's history. The ruling monarch in both realms was always male, and so Firiel would not have been able to take the throne either. With all this in mind, Captain Earnil was by far the best candidate for the throne and the Council of Gondor made the right choice by giving the Winged Crown to the victorious hero of the Battle of the Camp.

 

[Iru Illuvitar]

I saw someone else raise a thread from the dead earlier today, so I think I'm allowed to do so as well.

In the case of Arvedui, the Council of Gondor made the correct choice without a doubt. From their perspective, the throne of Gondor was now empty and needed a new King. Isildur committed the rule of Gondor to the House of Anarion and chose to rule the North himself. Thus, Gondor was to be ruled by the heirs of Anarion and Arnor to be ruled by the heirs of Isildur. Arvedui was effectively saying that he wasn't happy ruling just Arnor anymore, which had largely fallen into ruin, leaving it a shadow of it's former self. Arvedui was showing the desperation of the North in his greed-driven claim to the Throne of Gondor. For nearly two thousand years, the heirs of Isildur were content ruling Arnor, their kingdom. All of a sudden, one of the heirs of Isildur sees an opening in Gondor that he thinks he can use to take the throne and use the might of Gondor to save his crumbling realm of Arnor.

Arvedui had never even entered Gondor before, he had never fought for the South-Kingdom and had nothing to do with it, aside from marrying the daughter of the former King. When faced with a sudden claim to the throne from this stranger from another kingdom, the Council of Gondor was well within it's rights to deny Arvedui's presumptuous claim and give the rule of Gondor to a surviving heir of the House of Anarion, to whom the rule of Gondor had been committed to by Isildur himself in the distant past. Greed was the primary motivation behind Arvedui's claim. Why else would he suddenly want to rule a realm that he had never had anything to do with.

Indeed, Arvedui knew his claim was tenuous, and so he attempted to tack on his marriage to the Princess to make his claim seem more legitimate. It had the effect of doing the opposite, as marriage to the Princess did not give Arvedui any claim over the throne whatsoever. His wife, Princess Firiel might have had a chance at claiming her father's throne and becoming Queen of Gondor. But there had not been a single ruling queen in Arnor or Gondor for all of it's history. The ruling monarch in both realms was always male, and so Firiel would not have been able to take the throne either. With all this in mind, Captain Earnil was by far the best candidate for the throne and the Council of Gondor made the right choice by giving the Winged Crown to the victorious hero of the Battle of the Camp.

I would have to agree with you on this. Arvedui was more than likely trying to save his dying kingdom by using the wealth and might of Gondor. I would agree with the counsels decision in denying Arveduis claim being he was a descendant of Isildur and not Anarion. That being said Aragorn would still have had a legitimate claim to both kingdoms being a descendant of both Isildur and Anarion since Arvedui was married to the princess Firiel

 

[Alcuin]

You know, I’ve always suspected a little skullduggery here.

Pelendur was the first steward of Gondor for whom the position was made hereditary.

Pelendur was steward to the unfortunate Ondohir, father of the rightful but disinherited Queen Fíriel. He remained steward to Eärnil II, and in the debate in the Council of Gondor on who should become king, he must have served as Head of the Council, since Eärnil could not serve as head or vote in a matter that affected him so closely.

So – who do you suppose made Pelendur’s heirs hereditary Stewards of Gondor? Not Ondoher, you can be sure: Pelendur disinherited Ondoher’s only surviving child.

In Return of the King, Pelendur’s descendent and last Ruling Steward, Faramir, tacitly acknowledges this by kneeling before Aragorn at the gate of Minas Tirith before the assembly of Gondor and offering up his office. Aragorn graciously responds by making the same deal Eärnil made with Faramir’s more ambitious ancestor, restoring him to hereditary stewardship. Eärnil made a deal because he wanted the throne. Aragorn did it because he wanted an honest, capable, loyal administrator, not to mention stolid stability in the aftermath of war and transition to royal authority.

 

[Iru Illuvitar]

You know, I’ve always suspected a little skullduggery here.

Pelendur was the first steward of Gondor for whom the position was made hereditary.

Pelendur was steward to the unfortunate Ondohir, father of the rightful but disinherited Queen Fíriel. He remained steward to Eärnil II, and in the debate in the Council of Gondor on who should become king, he must have served as Head of the Council, since Eärnil could not serve as head or vote in a matter that affected him so closely.

So – who do you suppose made Pelendur’s heirs hereditary Stewards of Gondor? Not Ondoher, you can be sure: Pelendur disinherited Ondoher’s only surviving child.

In Return of the King, Pelendur’s descendent and last Ruling Steward, Faramir, tacitly acknowledges this by kneeling before Aragorn at the gate of Minas Tirith before the assembly of Gondor and offering up his office. Aragorn graciously responds by making the same deal Eärnil made with Faramir’s more ambitious ancestor, restoring him to hereditary stewardship. Eärnil made a deal because he wanted the throne. Aragorn did it because he wanted an honest, capable, loyal administrator, not to mention stolid stability in the aftermath of war and transition to royal authority.

I'd have to say Aragorn also did it because Faramir was the current captain of Gondor and his people trusted and loved him. Aragorn was currently a stranger in their eyes and he wanted to show that he wasn't just there to claim his leadership, he wanted his people to choose him as their king which they did when he returned from the last battle. I'd say leaving Faramir in the stewardship position wasn't only a friendly move but a political one as well

 

[Odin]

You know, I’ve always suspected a little skullduggery here.

Pelendur was the first steward of Gondor for whom the position was made hereditary.

Pelendur was steward to the unfortunate Ondohir, father of the rightful but disinherited Queen Fíriel. He remained steward to Eärnil II, and in the debate in the Council of Gondor on who should become king, he must have served as Head of the Council, since Eärnil could not serve as head or vote in a matter that affected him so closely.

So – who do you suppose made Pelendur’s heirs hereditary Stewards of Gondor? Not Ondoher, you can be sure: Pelendur disinherited Ondoher’s only surviving child.

In Return of the King, Pelendur’s descendent and last Ruling Steward, Faramir, tacitly acknowledges this by kneeling before Aragorn at the gate of Minas Tirith before the assembly of Gondor and offering up his office. Aragorn graciously responds by making the same deal Eärnil made with Faramir’s more ambitious ancestor, restoring him to hereditary stewardship. Eärnil made a deal because he wanted the throne. Aragorn did it because he wanted an honest, capable, loyal administrator, not to mention stolid stability in the aftermath of war and transition to royal authority.

That's an interesting view on the interactions between Earnil and Pelendur. I think that Earnil was first and foremost a warrior, he wasn't raised to rule a kingdom at all. Earnil was a career soldier whose was wise and valiant and led Gondor to victory against the Wainriders, but he wouldn't have had much of a head for ruling a vast kingdom like Gondor. The text of the appendices says "The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house." I would think that the unanimous approval of the Gondorian Council was spearheaded by Pelendur and that as a reward for his support and wise council, Earnil made Pelendur's title and position hereditary. But Earnil is described as "a wise man and not arrogant", so I would think that he appointed Pelendur out of wisdom and friendship.

 

[Ingolmin]

We cannot say that King Arvedui was greedy. Elendil had commited the realms of Gondor and Arnor to Anarien and Isildur. This doesn't means that the brothers did not help each other. When Anarien was in trouble, Isildur helped him. Similarly, the Witch King of Angmar had totally destroyed the kigdom of Arnor and only the the heirs of Amlaith(eldest son of Earendur, last king of Arnor and descendant of Valandil, Isildur's youngest son). Of whom the last king of Arthedain was King Arvedui. He would not have married the daughter of Ondoher for greed but to reunite the kingdoms of both Arnor and Gondor to prevent the downfall of both the cousin empires(Arnor and Gondor).
While Pelendur was a loyal steward who was a rigid and stubborn and did not see the situation clearly of those times(but in one way we can say that he was also right in one way). Also the Malbeth the seer foretold that if the Dunedain take one who was less hopeful, Arvedui would change his name and become a great King.
So you see, it was not Arvedui's greed to take the throne of Gondor but the work he had to do which was to rise above all his fathers since Elendil,