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What happened with the Ring of the 👑King of the Nazgûl

Frodo and Bilbo cannot control the Nazgul because they do not have the personal power or will to control "any" of the rings power, it takes someone else of power, that is why Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel all are afraid to take it, they could use the power but the evil would make them just like Sauron, and Saruman wanted the ring , and , again in UT tells the Nazgul,
I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me lord.
Sauron is unable to take physical form, but I always thought of him like the Nazgul, no real body, but able to manipulate real objects, tho he probably did not have to wear the nine rings, just possess them, and maybe not even that, if Saruman could have controled them ( the Nazgul) if he had the one.

UT is the abeviation for Unfinished Tales, a book put out by Christopher Tolkien after J.R.R. passed, it has collections of writings about various parts of his histories, for the general time of the books it has " the hunt for the ring", the quest of Erebor(hobbit), and the battle of the fords of Isen, plus a account of how Isulder lost the ring and other stories from different times of middle earth.
 
Dear Glomund,

first I´m interested in the quote, where did you find it?

second I haven´t read the Unfinished Tales yet. I think it isn´t translated into German so far.

Maybe I should read it in English. ;)
 
Originally posted by ltas
Good luck :D

Thanks Itas.

I require luck, because fantasy books are difficult to read in a foreign language, because some vocabulary you are not able to find in a dictionary.
 
I believe it is safe to assume that all that Sauron possessed was destroyed when the One Ring was destroyed. He possessed the Nine, and the three or four which remained of the Dwarven rings-which he helped to create, and when the One fell into the fire of Orodruin he lost all of his power and so all he made, all he possessed was destroyed.
 
In 'the shadow of the past' Gandalf comments that "the Nine he (Sauron) has gathered to himself, the Seven also or they are destroyed..." but at the council of Elrond he tells Galdor "the Nine the Nazgul keep"

However, there is a stronger statement in 'Unfinished Tales of Numenor & Middle Earth'

The Nazgul are:

"his mightiest servants, the ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him,
which Sauron held"

& later..

"they were entirely enslaved to their nine rings which he now held"

I would agree that Sauron keeps the rings as he has lost the One (presumably if someone else mastered the One he would command the Nine if they were wearing their rings?).



Another question though, why isn't Sauron invisible when wearing the One? I don't know if this is explicitly stated in the book but how else would Isildur cut the ring from his hand?
 
Thanks for the quotes.
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I would agree that Sauron keeps the rings as he has lost the One (presumably if someone else mastered the One he would command the Nine if they were wearing their rings?).
That sounds very reasonable. It seems that it's vitally important for Sauron to keep the Nine, otherwise he would loose his most important servants to the keeper of the One.

But why doesn't Sauron turn invisible? As far as I remember, no-one here has been able to give a final answer to that question. I don't think it has been discussed in the "Of the Rings of Power" either. I've heard that there's a section about the Dark Rings in the "History of ME" though, perhaps it's mentioned there...

P.S. It's nice you joined, Menelvagor, enjoy your time here!
 
I think it is highly probable that sauron doesnt turn invisible because he put himself(malice, desire to rule, you know the story) into the ring. It seems to me that Sauron and the ring are one. Therefore, it would not make sense for when he put thing ring (his other half) on that he would turn invisible. Rather i think it would complete him and give him the power of to rule all and so on. I dont know it just makes sense to me:)
 
Sounds pretty sensible to me. (However, there are people here who are very strongly against "the Ring is an extention of Sauron"-theory.)
 
After the ONE RING is dissapeared in the fires of the Orodruin, the eight rings of the Nazgûl were destroyed. But what happened with the ninth ring of the Witch-King? Does anybody know?
In the Silmarillion, on page 348, Tolkien wrote,"they (the Nazgul) fell under the thraldom of the ring they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's." Thus the Lord of the Nazgul was wearing his ring in the battle of the Pelennor Fields and it would have been left on the field when he was slain.
 
Well, no ring was found on the Pelennor Fields, was there?

What I cannot understand is how you can still come to this conclusion when the quotes from LotR and UT in this old thread are, at least in my view, quite clear on this matter.
 
Welcome to the forum , Tidenergy!

But yes, multiple statements by Tolkien, both in LOTR and later, make it clear that Sauron held the Rings. Although not made explicit, I believe it is implied in the very first discussion of them in "The Shadow of the Past". Gandalf tells Frodo:

And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the dark power that rules the Rings.

Sauron tried to entice the Elves, in his persona as "Giver of Gifts"; in that he was successful, but not in the completion of his plan, which was to entrap and enslave them. Therefore, after capturing many of the Rings, he attempted to use them to to do the same with the "lesser" races.

His purpose in giving out the Rings was to enslave their bearers; once they became "invisible permanently", that is, totally under his control, there was no need to allow them to keep the "gifts"-- they now "walked in twilight".

I notice some odd notions expressed in this thread -- that Sauron might become invisible while wearing the One, for example.

And the idea that he was "disembodied"; where does that come from? Because he doesn't "appear" in the book? Or from the movies' Sauron the Evil Lighthouse?
 
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Well, no ring was found on the Pelennor Fields, was there?

What I cannot understand is how you can still come to this conclusion when the quotes from LotR and UT in this old thread are, at least in my view, quite clear on this matter.
I agree that there was no ring found, but I will side with what Tolkien wrote over a third party that of his son in UT. Further in LotR, Tolkien has Gandalf telling Galdor (as mentioned in this thread) in the Council of Elrond, on page 327 of The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Nine the Nazgul keep. The seven are taken or destroyed." Thus Sauron has not taken the Nine and the ring still be not found on the field. However, I will look again at UT on this subject.
 
These quotes are still from JRRT, if posthumously published in Unfinished Tales or elsewhere (adding two published in The Lord of the Rings).

"They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..." JRRT Unfinished Tales

"At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held."
JRRT Unfinished Tales

"I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;..."
JRRT Letters

"True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;..." Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

"So it is now; the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still." The Lord of the Rings

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." The Lord of the Rings

Despite the Nine the Nazgul "keep", for myself, I think the message is that sometime after losing the One, Sauron took back the Nine.
 
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Thinking the Lord of the Nazgûl’s ring of power was left fallen upon the battlefield is a logical conclusion for a reader who isn’t conversant with Letters of JRR Tolkien or Unfinished Tales or History of Middle-earth – or The Tolkien Forum. ;) Even a casual first-time reader knows at this point that the Ringwraiths are Ring-wraiths because they wore the Nine Rings, so it’s a natural conclusion that when their leader dies, he leaves behind the ring he wore. You’d have to be a very careful, attentive reader to notice that Sauron has taken the Nine Rings to himself, presumably until he can re-obtain the One Ring.

The logic here must be his possessing the Nine Rings makes it easier for him to control the Nine Nazgûl. There is a TTF member, Gordis, who has spent a good deal of time thinking about this problem: If I understand her correctly, I believe she argues (or argued) that the Nine Ringwraiths enjoyed considerable freedom of action after Gil-galad and Elendil discomfited Sauron, enabling Isildur to take the One Ring so that Sauron’s “spirit fled”, as Gandalf described it to Frodo. If Gordis becomes aware of this thread – and I hope she does! - she can speak for herself; but I think her position that Sauron’s absence gave the Ringwraiths some reprieve from his overwhelming and domineering personality is probably accurate.

“Possession is nine-tenths of the law,” is an old adage (its origins are discussed here), and in the case of the One Ring represented an effectively mortal threat to Sauron. If another, powerful individual (say, Gandalf) obtained the Ring, Sauron would be effectively reduced to impotence, as he was when it was destroyed, since his native power was bound up in the Ring and would be transferred to another.

As long as Sauron lacked possession of his Ring, the wielders of the Three Rings were free to use their Rings of Power for the purposes for which they were made: “understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. … But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One.”

That implies that Sauron cannot see into the minds and hearts of the Nine Nazgûl without his One Ring, either. If that’s the correct interpretation of Tolkien’s tale, then it makes sense that he would take their Rings of Power from them as “pledges of [their] conduct, to be returned later,” as Gandalf put it in rather different circumstances to Saruman, who took offense; but I don’t think the Ringwraiths were able to present much resistance to Sauron in his actual presence when he demanded their Rings. And though it is a mighty interesting matter to speculate upon - perhaps some did resist, or sought to avoid him - I imagine the prospect of their master’s finding his Ring and wreaking vengeance upon a recalcitrant Ringwraith was probably enough to encourage them to coöperate immediately.

Finally, Gandalf hints at the beginning in his conversation with Frodo in Bag End that Sauron has physical possession of the Nine Rings rather than the Ringwraiths themselves: “The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.” I interpret that to mean that once in possession of the One Ring, Sauron could then safely (for him!) return the Nine Rings of Power to his servants, who could then in turn use the powers of their Rings once more.

Tidenergy, it was also my first impression that the Witch-king’s Ring of Power was left upon the field before the Gates of Minas Tirith. But after many(!) re-readings and pouring over the other books - Letters, Unfinished Tales, and the various volumes of History of Middle-earth that cover the writing of The Lord of the Rings - I must conclude that Sauron took the Nine Rings from the Nazgûl in order to better control them until he could re-obtain the Ruling Ring. Remember, the whole point of the Rings of Power was so that Sauron could control other people: he wasn’t about to let the Ringwraiths do as they pleased until he managed to scrounge up his own Ring once again. Sauron was the ultimate control freak. He’d fit right into today’s headlines out of Washington or Silicon Valley or Moscow or Beijing. That’s what gives the story its pointy end.

But if you disagree, by all means, gather your arguments, don’t be shy, and don’t be cowed by our different opinions! Put your case forward. And welcome to The Tolkien Forum.
 
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Excellent post, Alcuin!

I would point out a difference though: "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them". Not so the Seven or the Nine. They were made with his help, and therefore tainted with his "spirit", or "ego", or whatever metaphor you might choose. I'd suggest this made the Men, at least, after their fall into Nazgul, subject to him, whether he possessed the One or no.

That is, he could "see into their hearts and minds" even without the One. Which is not to say they were merely puppets, or robots. "This is my hour!" the Chief cries to Gandalf, indicating they had volition.

As to what influence he had on them during the millennium or so in which he was disincarnate, that is a question. The Tale of Years says "Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows". Their activities during this period don't appear to be counter to his goals, at any rate.
 
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I think the Nine Wraiths were subject to Sauron, but their great mission was to take the One, bring it back to Mordor and hand it over, give it away (<- that last part sounds pretty obvious now that I write this!). But...

… perhaps Sauron could take no chances here, and thus the Nine were "... the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."

So maybe it's a case of measure and assurance. They Nine were "entirely" enslaved, or "utterly" subservient to a Sauron who wore the Nine Rings (on his nine fingers), or at least held them physically. And I think he would want such assurance given the nature of this mission, and the nature of the One.

Although admittedly, I've probably not thought about this matter as much as Gordis, or others.
 
These quotes are still from JRRT, if posthumously published in Unfinished Tales or elsewhere (adding two published in The Lord of the Rings).

"They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..." JRRT Unfinished Tales

"At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held."
JRRT Unfinished Tales

"I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;..."
JRRT Letters

"True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;..." Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

"So it is now; the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still." The Lord of the Rings

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." The Lord of the Rings

Despite the Nine the Nazgul "keep", for myself, I think the message is that sometime after losing the One, Sauron took back the Nine.
Okay, I have read the book. Thanks for Tolkien's quotes from UT, unfortunately they are taken out of context as shown on page 441, where the title "(ii) OTHER VERSIONS OF THE STORY" put them where they belong. Being a published author myself with copious notes, I suggest since Tolkien's notes contradict what he has written in LOTR, then he had a reason for that. His whole epic story revolves around a lost ring of power that was found. Thus, I suppose he had a subplot of another lost ring of power not found on the field of battle for the coming Age of Men. He did it on purpose. I found it! LOL! The road goes ever on. However, fact is stranger than fiction. Remember Thoth.
 
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Okay, I have read the book. Thanks for Tolkien's quotes from UT, unfortunately they are taken out of context as shown on page 441, where the title "(ii) OTHER VERSIONS OF THE STORY" put them where they belong. Being a published author myself with copious notes, I suggest since Tolkien's notes contradict what he has written in LOTR, then he had a reason for that.

The story in question is not The Lord of the Rings though, but The Hunt For The Ring (in Unfinished Tales), with these other versions being characterized by CJRT as "adding to or modifying the story in important particulars" (that is, The Hunt for The Ring story).

If you would like to argue that these two citations contradict author published work, that's another matter -- but if so we would be dealing with more than one description in any case, including the two I posted above from The Lord of the Rings.
 
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