Where to find classes in Sindarin?

[Arwen in training]

Do you know if there is any Sindarin class here because I can't find it

 

[Olorgando]

Do you know if there is any Sindarin class here because I can't find it

I've only been active on JRRT Internet sites since late 2013. The one I found then

Council of Elrond

Lord of the Rings News and Information

www.councilofelrond.com

… is the one that back then was far and away the most active on Sindarin and Quenya (though dim memory also seems to have some threads here on TTF with some language heavyweights posting). Unfortunately, that site (and the one I joined in 2017) seems to have gone awfully quiet - with a small, very small resurgence recently. There is (was) one language nerd there that awed me, and last I saw, he (?) does seem to react when there are serious questions raised in threads. They also used to have workbooks or something of the sort, but what's left of those after the two serious hacks the site suffered only in the six-and-a-half years I've been active there - no idea.

 

[Arwen in training]

Ok thanks anyway!

 

[Just Another Hobbit]

A couple websites I found helpful are realelvish.net and elfdict.com (I prefer realelvish.net but elfdict.com has been helpful at times).

Also, I suggest watching these videos:

WARNING: His pronunciation is off in the first video, especially his vowels😂 it should be:
A = AH
E = EH
I = IH as in sick. The above videos incorrectly pronounce it as EE as in machine, but this pronunciation is used when the 'i' has a tilde ( like this: í ) above it. Thank you Elthir for correcting me (see below)
O = AW as in thOUGHt
U = OO as in brUte
and Y = Ü or EE apparently Ü is sometimes pronounced OO, but I dont really understand 'Ü' so I could be wrong lol
He goes over all these and more in the second video, but I thought I'd give you a heads up.

If you want a good dictionary, I've found Sindarin-English & English-Sindarin Dictionary by J-M Carpenter to be really helpful.

I hope some of this helps!!

 

[Elthir]

In my opinion he's still off with respect to primary stress for example (in that it's a bit unclear anyway), also dh versus th (which in Roman orthography simply represent voiced and unvoiced interdental th), and in my opinion, off with respect to Sindarin short i . . . noting that mithril has no long vowels.

I'll add that I disagree with the filmmakers concerning Sindarin short i as well. I understand why they chose their pronunciation for the films, but in my opinion, Tolkien clears up this matter in The Road Goes Ever On.

For me, generally speaking at least -- in certain instances short i is going to sound like long i in quality, for example (IMO), the first i in Gilthoniel versus the second, despite that both are short --

Grey-elven short i as in English pit, long i (í in Roman orthography) as in English machine.

🐾

 

[Elthir]

Tolkien reads Sindarin . . . short and long i. Sindarin linnathon versus palan-díriel, for instance.

 

[Just Another Hobbit]

Tolkien reads Sindarin . . . short and long i. Sindarin linnathon versus palan-díriel, for instance.

Thank you for sharing this video, did Tolkien pronounce Gilthoniel and míriel with all long 'i's, but the second 'i' in silivren he pronounced short? I listened to the recording while checking the spelling of the lyrics with this site: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel
and almost all of the 'i's are without accents or tildes, yet Tolkien pronounced all but one of them long.

I'm not sure what edition you have, but in The Return of the King, in Appendix E under 'VOWELS', it says, "...the sounds were approximately those represented by i, e, a, o, u in English machine, were, father, for, brute, irrespective of quantity."

Why does Sindarin always have to be complicated?? 😂

 

[Elthir]

Upon closer review, I have to admit that Tolkien doesn't seem entirely consistent there 🤔

But anyway, to my ear, the first i in Gilthoniel (see my earlier post about this word, and other short i vowels in certain "circumstances"), plus the short vowels in question in linnathon and galadhremmin are different from machine, and correct according to The Road Goes Ever On.

Meaning, for example, I don't say meethreel (even with short duration vowels), but rather both vowels with i in English pit, or in Tolkien's own example below, sick.

I'm not sure what edition you have, but in The Return of the King, in Appendix E under 'VOWELS', it says, "...the sounds were approximately those represented by i, e, a, o, u in English machine, were, father, for, brute, irrespective of quantity."

True, and that's why I say I understand why folks say "meethreel" (again, even with short duration) in the films, for instance; but I still disagree. In a later (later than Appendix E) author-published account, The Road Goes Ever On, (RGEO), JRRT noted the following when looking at Ah Elbereth Gilthoniel:

"The intended pronunciation is given in Appendix E to volume III but not perhaps with great clarity, so I offer a few notes ( . . . ) The short vowels may be rendered as in E. sick, bed, hot . . ." Also, referring back to Appendix E, immediately following Tolkien's "irrespective of quantity" he adds: "In Sindarin long e, a, o had the same quality as the short vowels, being derived . . ."

So I asked me, why does Tolkien note these vowels as having the same quality as the short vowels, but not long i? My opinion/answer is because, according to RGEO, short i has both a different quality and duration: or in English examples again, sick versus machine.

🐾

 

[Just Another Hobbit]

Yeah to be honest I want to pronounce mithril with short 'i' sounds, and now with all of the stuff you pointed out, I might revert back to saying that. I'll probably use the long 'i' the most, but it's nice to know that I can use the short 'i' too!

What do you mean when you mention The Road Goes Ever On and On? I'm familiar with the poem, but it sounds like you're mentioning a book?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

It's this book:

 

[Elthir]

Yes, in 1967 Tolkien published a book called The Road Goes Ever On, a song cycle, which also contains linguistic references, Tolkien's own Elvish writing and bits of internal history -- especially notably (for me) internal history regarding Galadriel.

Again, it might just be my ear, but for me S. short i sounds closer to the quality of machine in certain "sound environments" . . . in Tolkien's Hirgon for example (from the reading below), but not in mindolluin, not in minas, and not in the second vowel of tirith.

Again I'm not an expert or a linguist, and can't explain it well (even if I'm correct), but anyway, that's what I hear in the following. Or to put it another way, I don't hear meenas teereeth -- except a bit of this sound in the first short vowel in tirith (that I coloured red), the vowel followed by r.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

meenas teereeth

No one, ever, is going to persuade me to pronounce this.

 

[Elthir]

Me neether, S-eS

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

If I do, you can call me Squeent.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

BTW, while we're on the subject: El Thir -- is that Castilian?

 

[Elthir]

Here's an old post where I explain primary stress. It's a bit windy but maybe examples help get the point across. It's not as complicated as it sometimes looks!

____________________

Hello! According to Appendix E, the primary stress of these names should be:

gAladhon (note that Sindarin -dh- is considered a single consonant, represented in Elvish writing with a single letter, as in this version: gAlaðon)

Start with the penultimate syllable, or "the last syllable but one", as Tolkien puts it in Appendix E. Here, this syllable contains a short vowel (a), not a diphthong, and the short vowel is not followed by two or more consonants. Thus the primary stress moves to the left of the penultimate syllable (in this case the first syllable). Compare lEgolas.

celEbrant

Here, the last syllable but one contains a vowel that is followed by two consonants. This syllable is thus stressed.

nIphredil

Same description as for Galadhon. To say it a different way, if the penultimate syllable here contained a long vowel, a diphthong, or the short e was followed by two or more consonants, the penultimate syllable itself would be stressed. But none of these things apply in this example, so again the primary stress moves to the syllable to the left.

Sindarin th, ch, dh, are single consonants (and again, written with single letters in Elvish writing), that's why it's dEnethor, not denEthor, using Tolkien's own example in Appendix E.
____________________

🐾

 

[Elthir]

BTW, while we're on the subject: El Thir -- is that Castilian?

Elthir is a variant of Gilthir from Tolkien's Smith of Wootton Major

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Oh. Good (not goo).

And here I was thinking it was a variant of El Thid.

 

[Just Another Hobbit]

Again, it might just be my ear, but for me S. short i sounds closer to the quality of machine in certain "sound environments" . . . in Tolkien's Hirgon for example (from the reading below), but not in mindolluin, not in minas, and not in the second vowel of tirith.

Again I'm not an expert or a linguist, and can't explain it well (even if I'm correct), but anyway, that's what I hear in the following. Or to put it another way, I don't hear meenas teereeth -- except a bit of this sound in the first short vowel in tirith (that I coloured red), the vowel followed by r.

Yeah I see what you mean about minas tirith; that video was really helpful, thanks! So I guess there isn't very much of a concrete rule about where to use long 'i' as opposed to short? Unless there's something in TRGEO? Tolkien himself wasn't very consistent in those videos :/ But its nice to know that I can go back to pronouncing mithril with short 'i's!

 

[Elthir]

I guess I would venture to say (what a confident start to a sentence) . . .

. . . that I follow the rule for long i-vowels (and Tolkien's addition for the groups: er, ir, ur, as air, eer, oor), and for the short version I try to use "sick" even though I know in certain positions it's difficult/sounds different anyway.

I can say, for examples, Fingon, Idril, minas, mithril, linnathon easily enough with short i,
but Hirgon and Galadriel sound different (and Elthir too), unless I really try with Galadriel
for instance, in which case the result arguably doesn't flow so easily, however.

Hmm. And what about the Sindarin article i?

If our member Atwe (just one of our members who is well-versed in Tolkien's languages and linguistic issues in general) ever looks in this thread, perhaps he can shed light -- and perhaps stomp on some of my opinions here, if necessary; but that's a risk I take when trying to sound
like I know what I'm talking about!

Also, I don't know why I'm suddenly into bolding words and stuff 🐾