Differences between Arnor and Gondor

[Beleg]

Re: Eriol's post, second to last of mine.

Those two factors you presented are not visible in T.A. 10, Beleg.

Population Diminishment is Visible.

Silmarillion, Of Rings of Power and the Third Age
Valandil took up his abode in Annúminas, but his folk were diminished, and of the Númenóreans and of the Men of Eriador there remained now too few to people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built; in Dagorlad, and in Mordor, and upon the Gladden Fields many had fallen.

Why was Arnor already weak and Gondor strong in T.A. 800, before Angmar, before the division of the realm?

A very, very strong reason is population diminishment; not enough people to maintain a strong Kingdom, which I think is the only reason we can give, if we are present in T.A 10.
But any wise eye would know that to maintain a country, a country needs activity, which would keep the warriors and people busy, or else Civil war/strifes might occur, since ambitious people would have nothing to do to calm their adventurous spirits other then interfering in the matter's of Kingdoms. This would result in civil war and eventual distruction of the Kingdom.
A natural item for the adventurous and ambitious people to satisfy their heart is expansion, occupation of other lands, wars, where Champions can show their bravery and prove their worth.
But such was not the case in Arnor, since Gondor and Misty Mountains jarred it's way from further occupation of Lands.
Naturally the champions and ambitions Kings would have nothing else to do then indulge themselves in the internal matters of the Kingdom, and they would want to prove their worth by fighting with other's of their order---the eventual result being destruction, as was the case in Arnor.
Even at T.A 10, when the signs of petty quarells hadn't appeared, one could foresee them arising, due to the particular geogrophical and political reasons.

Bilbo's finding of the Ring. Gollum in Mount Doom.

Not to sound Ostentatious, but did Eru send these people on the spur of the moment at those places?
It all depended on the personal choices and their was a very logical reason behind these events. Eru didn't interfere, It was all because of the personal choices and the turn of the events based on these choices.

Everything which is largely ascribed to "luck" is under Eru's province.

How can you prove this? It was not by chance and luck did Bilbo found the ring, the events happened in such a way that he was compelled to find the ring; the logic back it. Luck is never backed by Logic, but Bilbo's and Gollum's sojourns are backed by logic
If you don't agree, then In the next post I'll explain how so.

It means that if people screw up, Eru can usually find a way to put things "back on track

Why would he do that? If that's the case then why let the "screwing" happen? Eru does and will not interfere in the matters of Arda, except for special occasions.

I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.

Well I don't buy it. According to logic, a weak Arnor would be no good, if we were to fight Sauron. Logic does not taken unto consideration luck. I would say again, Eru had no part in all this afair.

I don't think the carrying capacity of the lands, the fact that Gondor is more fertile, is a big issue.

Can you trade fertile grass away? Will you send all your animals to Gondor to be reared up and call them back to Arnor when they are well-fed and healthy?
Trade here means that they could exchange food---but' that's no substitute for topographical elements. Food can be exchanged, but geography cannot.

I can't figure out the history of those first centuries of Arnor. It seems as if nothing happened, the Kings stayed looking at the Stars, and cities were falling in decay... and I can't see why.

So what do you suppose should have happened? The fact is the King's had nothing to do, except to maintain their Kingdom, which was not threatened by any external element--Life was slow, dead and monotonous--contrary to Gondor's exciting atmosphere.
And one could see this coming in T.A 10.

Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful.

Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.

that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway

The western bounds of Arnor, for the most part is, The Great Sea.

 

[Eriol]

So, Beleg, do you mean that peace and prosperity leads to decay?

Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.

Naturally the champions and ambitions Kings would have nothing else to do then indulge themselves in the internal matters of the Kingdom, and they would want to prove their worth by fighting with other's of their order---the eventual result being destruction, as was the case in Arnor.

I've never heard of a more... hindsighted theory as this one.

The population diminishment took place over the eight centuries, and not as a result of the War of the Last Alliance. This is the reason Gondor is so important in this argument. In Gondor we have a twin kingdom in which NO population diminishment was taking place at this time.

What, in T.A. 10, could predict that?

Note, Population Diminishment is not an event, it is a process. It implies this equation:

birth rate + immigration rate < death rate + emigration rate

I doubt that this was the case in the first 2 or 3 centuries of Arnor, but it seems it was already beginning to reach an equilibrium or a real diminishment before T.A. 800. Is there a reason for it?

As for trade, well, I don't get your point. Inderjit has already established that Eriador is fertile. Before the carrying capacity (the ability to provide food, for both men and animals) of the land is exhausted, it can certainly sustain a MUCH LARGER population than was ever present in the area in the Third Age.

The carrying capacity of the land is not a "limiting factor", in technical parlance. Even if it is smaller than Gondor, it is more than enough for Arnor -- especially an Arnor which had suffered a population diminishment in the War of the Last Alliance.

Trade can supply them with whatever they can't produce. And of course they has significant trading advantages, especially due to their proximity to Khazâd-dûm and the Ered Luin's mines.

The more I think about it, the more I reject the hypothesis of bad terrain and bad climate. It is simply untenable that this could lead to a population diminishment of an already diminished population, over 8 centuries.

It is still a mystery to me.

About Eru. Eru's role is one of that hypothesis which is confirmed by Tolkien himself, in his Letters. He mentions those two examples. You can argue with him (and I mean it, you can argue with him -- I don't think Tolkien's word regarding the philosophical and theological implications of his work is the last word, especially because it is a strongly Catholic view, and people have the right to disagree with it).

About "logic" and Gollum, everyone would agree that Frodo's mercy was not an act of "logic". Sam was the one being logical at that time.

Eru lets the "screwing" happen because he gave free will to his children. If he prevented it before it happened, he would be taking away that free will.

And the purpose of Arnor's decay, hiding the line of Isildur, is evidently confirmed by your hindsighted hypothesis . If a stable kingdom leads to strife, the only way to keep the line of Kings is to end the realm.



When we go into teleology (purposes) it gets very complicated. My guess was simply that -- a guess. It fits the observation, but I don't claim anything more than that for it. I don't mean that Eru was the one behind Arnor's decay, that he planned it from the beginning. The responsibility is clearly with the people. But Eru let it happen -- he could have prevented it while keeping free will operative in a thousand ways. It helps to be All-Mighty

 

[Lantarion]

Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.

This goes into ontological arguments: why aren't humans happy when everthing is techincally all right? Why does there have to be excitement/strife in order to maintain life?

The western bounds of Arnor, for the most part is, The Great Sea.

It is said in Appendix A that Arnor's sphere of influence ended with the still free realms of the Eryd Lindon.

The more I think about it, the more I reject the hypothesis of bad terrain and bad climate. It is simply untenable that this could lead to a population diminishment of an already diminished population, over 8 centuries. It is still a mystery to me.

I think what was implied that due to the infavourable terrain and conditions, Arnor was set up on an unstable ground. But as there is no proof that the conditions were unsuitable in the first place, it is futile to discuss.

But Eru let it happen -- he could have prevented it while keeping free will operative in a thousand ways.

As far as I can see, Ilúvatar had little if any actual active jurisdiction in Arda at all. His intervention is implied in several cases, but it is never stated outright IIRC. A quote which states that Eru was still actively a part of the happenings and events of Arda in the Third Age would help..

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Lantarion
As far as I can see, Ilúvatar had little if any actual active jurisdiction in Arda at all. His intervention is implied in several cases, but it is never stated outright IIRC. A quote which states that Eru was still actively a part of the happenings and events of Arda in the Third Age would help..

It's in the Letters -- in fact, in many Letters. But I don't have them here...

Also, Gandalf states quite clearly that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and Frodo was meant to get it... These words imply a purpose (natural processes, or chance, do not mean, aim at, anything), and a person behind it.

I wouldn't know how to interpret Gandalf's statement without the Eru hypothesis. And Tolkien himself addressed Eru's governance in Arda, when speaking of Gollum in Orodruin.

Governance does not mean constant interference, it means watchfulness and power to intervene. He only does it when He thinks it is needed. The laws of nature (which He made, hehe) work quite well most of the time.

 

[Lantarion]

Hehe.
Ah, ok. I haven't read the Letters, so I didn't know. Thanks.
But it is still a rather important aspect of Tolkien's whole cosmology, the constant presence of the Creator in the World.. It seems uncharacteristic of Tolkien not to mention it in the Silmarillion..
Sorry, back to topic.

 

[Eriol]

Since I eat lunch at home, I was able to find one quote (among many), from Letter 181:

But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story; that is, to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle').

Tolkien was discussing the relationship between the Valar and Ilúvatar.

 

[Valandil]

Hmmm... I've read through this, and offer a couple thoughts for consideration:

1. Although it fell, Arnor (including its successor kingdom Arthedain) lasted for over 2000 years! That's a pretty long time for you and me.

2. While Tolkien frequently writes of Arnor's continual decline, I see that as sort of 'historical summary'. It makes sense to me that there were perpetual 'ups and downs' with an overall downward trend... particularly punctuated by the division of Arnor, protracted civil wars, strife with Angmar, The Great Plague and Angmar's final assault. It's hard to imagine that every single year was worse than the year before... for almost 2000 years!

3. If accepting division was the 'weaker' way to go for Earendur's sons, might it also have been the more compassionate way? If a life-and-death struggle had ensued, as in Gondor's Kin-strife, what later King of Arnor could have rested peacefully at night? What younger prince... second or third son... could imagine himself safe from his elder brother? And might be tempted into attempting to assassinate that older brother himself? This would lead to the same paranoia found in Gondor when they ran out of claimants for the succession of the throne. If the course of events in Gondor preserved the kingdom, it was at the cost of the line of kings. If the course of events in Arnor cost them the kingdom... it at least preserved the line of kings. All this sets the stage for Aragorn (the King without a kingdom) and Gondor (the kingdom without a King) to come together in 3019.

Here's some interesting speculation on the two (from an article by michael martinez!)

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

And another... speculation focused on the division of Arnor:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/46708

 

[Arvedui's Legacy]

Do you suppose there is any reason (beyond story-telling reasons, of course) for the difference in the history of Arnor and Gondor? They both began as free realms under Numenorean rule, and their territory was not so different in size at the beginning; Gondor had more Palantíri, but on the other hand Arnor had more contact with elvish strongholds (Lindon, Imladris).

A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade? And if yes, why? What was the feature that enabled Gondor to grow while Arnor waned?

I have some thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours...

From my knowledge, Gondor was near many enemies like the wain riders (Easterlings) and Harad while Arnor was far from any enemies at the time. With this in mind, Gondor had enemies at their doorstep so other matters in the kingdom weren't of absolute matter at the times. Arnor on the other hand had no enemies to face and so kin-strife came upon Arnor when Earendur had three sons which each believed had the right to rule Arnor. The quarrel led to the division of three lesser kingdoms Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. By the time of the Arnor-Angmar wars, Arthedain and Cardolan joined forces with Cardolan having no opposition or Arthedain's rule (Theory that the line of kings in Cardolan have died out), but there was no time for a reunion of the countries and pointless if Angmar's campaign is successful. Rhudaur's line of kings died out very quickly if I remember correctly and the dunedain living there either left, died, or was unstated. With the remnants of Arnor's kingdom weaken from the centuries of war with Angmar, it led to the downfall. Gondor could not send aid for they were also fighting enemies in the east and south, and when they did the kingdoms of Arnor had fallen and the people became wanders in the wild (Rangers). Gondor had to face mortal men while the Arnor they had the face Sauron's second in command which he is immortal and black sorcery to aid him. Arnor was weaker than Gondor at this point and in my opinion had a stronger enemy so this is why I believe Arnor failed.

hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?

Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.

I could give an advantage to Gondor on this, but not as big as it turned out to be.

And then we have population. I agree this is very important, but it really begs the question. Why did Arnor have a smaller population? Remember, they had 1000 years of peace before Angmar appeared. This question goes through the population statistics of Eriador through time, and Inderjit has addressed them some. Was Eriador always a wasteland? It seems not. So why 1000 years of peace were not enough?

The division is obviously harmful, but -- is there any reason why the kingdoms could not be reunified? It is obvious that Rhudaur, for instance, became evil -- could not Cardolan and Arthedain have prevented it and occupied the area?

It seems that the ravages in Arnor were not countered, ever, while Gondor did some smart moves (e.g., Cirion and Eorl) to withstand the passage of time).

Why did Arnor simply accept decay?

Arnor DID try to recover with every chance they got. The elves even took part in the war to help Arnor and elves helping men is a big deal. If you want a similar idea to Arnor-Angmar war, look up the Three kingdoms of Korea. They lasted almost the same time as the kingdoms of Arnor and Angmar as China (Not implying China is evil or any way, just an example). Two of the kingdoms allied to fight against China while one allied with China and from there it led to the fall of the two kingdoms. Strategy and battles are almost similar, this is just my opinion.

 

[Ingolmin]

I do not agree with those who think that peace brings strifes and conflicts because men get bored.
No, though the conflicts and civil wars were there in both the sister kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor which led to their destruction, one survived (Gondor) not properly and the other collapsed(Arnor), both of them were not aftereffects of peace. Firstly, there was no peace, it was Watchful Peace by which I mean that peace was there but not absolute peace which could lead to flourishment of the men(here Dunedain), the Ringwraiths and many other evils consistently troubled the kings and their kingdoms.
Secondly civil wars that took place in both the kingdoms were not because the ambitious ones wanted adventure (as mentioned by Beleg before), the fights in the kingdom was mainly between those who claimed their descent from Elendil and wanted the kingdoms for themselves and the wise wanted to preserve the line of Elendil. Remember the wars that took place in Gondor between Castamir and Eldacar, it was because of the throne. The conflict between the sons of Earendur(last king of Arnor) was also because of this. The division of Arnor made the kingdom even more weak rather than strong.
Also the Dunedain of the Third Age were not so wise and skilled as their fathers before them because the mingling of their blood with that of lesser men and due to their estrangement from Eldar.
Whatever passed in Middle Earth was neither luck but was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself. The fate of Middle earth was bound with the Music sung by the Ainur, only in some cases Illuvitar interfered.

I am Ingolmin, a young loremaster and I claim my descent from Elrond Halfelven. Feel free to comment and ask your queries.
Thank you.

 

[Halasían]

Whatever passed in Middle Earth was neither luck but was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself. The fate of Middle earth was bound with the Music sung by the Ainur, only in some cases Illuvitar interfered.

That seems like it is double-speak. On one hand you say that whatever passed was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself, then you say that the fate of ME was bound with the Music and Illuvitar only interfered in some cases?

 

[Ingolmin]

Halasian, my friend! I would like to rephrase my sentence, I mean to say that the whatever passed in Middle Earth was not by luck but through the Music of the Ainur which was subject to the over lordship of Eru himself.

 

[Halasían]

Halasian, my friend! I would like to rephrase my sentence, I mean to say that the whatever passed in Middle Earth was not by luck but through the Music of the Ainur which was subject to the over lordship of Eru himself.

Sounds like this is another thread on its own.

Getting back to the differences between Arnor and Gondor, I remember reading an essay on how the mingling of lesser men led to the strengthening of Gondor desite it having caused a civil war, wheras in Arnor the Dunedain were more insular and tended to keep their lineage among their own. This of course brings in the issue of actual numbers of the population of Arnor and the diversity of the gene pool. I wish I could find that but it was on a message board that no longer exists. I'll do a deeper search...

 

[Miguel]

Arnor on the other hand had no enemies to face and so kin-strife came upon Arnor

I do not agree with those who think that peace brings strifes and conflicts because men get bored

 

[Halasían]

Getting back to the differences between Arnor and Gondor, I remember reading an essay on how the mingling of lesser men led to the strengthening of Gondor desite it having caused a civil war, wheras in Arnor the Dunedain were more insular and tended to keep their lineage among their own. This of course brings in the issue of actual numbers of the population of Arnor and the diversity of the gene pool. I wish I could find that but it was on a message board that no longer exists. I'll do a deeper search...

Found it. This was an essay written by David Cord, author of the book Dead Romans (aka Thorin on the now-defunct Minas Tirith message board) back in 2002. Some interesting insights as to the differences Arnor and Gondor approached things through their history.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Differences Between Arnor and Gondor


The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my thesis here is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth.

To make a case for this idea, I need to show that:

• A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
• B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
• C) The intermingling saved Gondor
• D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor.

The Northern Line did not intermarry
This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6)

The Southern Line did intermarry
This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8)

The intermingling saved Gondor
This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10)

Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South.

Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11)

This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived.

The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor
The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15)

The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years.

It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form.

Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.

Notes:
(1) Index, The Silmarillion.
(2) Many Meetings, The Lord of the Rings
(3) The Council of Elrond, The Lord of the Rings
(4) Appendix A (iii), The Lord of the Rings
(5) Appendix A (v), The Lord of the Rings
(6) Appendix A (ii), The Lord of the Rings
(7) Appendix A (iv), The Lord of the Rings
(8) Ibid.
(9) Ibid.
(10) Ibid.
(11) Ibid.
(12) The Passing of the Grey Company, The Lord of the Rings
(13) Unfinished Tales & Appendix A (i.), the Lord of the Rings
(14) Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
(15) Unfinished Tales
(16) At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, The Lord of the Rings
(17) Helm’s Deep, The Lord of the Rings

 

[Halasían]

Kinda glad I posted this here as the old Minas Tirith site is no more. Needed it on another site.

 

[Vardarianna]

I just read through this entire thread and am going to read through another two pages of this thread linked by Lhunithiliel. Quite fascinating!

@Valandil - The old Suite101 links to Michael Martinez's work is no longer valid. His work can be found here now.

Found it. This was an essay written by David Cord, author of the book Dead Romans (aka Thorin on the now-defunct Minas Tirith message board) back in 2002. Some interesting insights as to the differences Arnor and Gondor approached things through their history.

@Halasían, would this Thorin be the same Thorin from that old site?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Differences Between Arnor and Gondor


The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my thesis here is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth.

To make a case for this idea, I need to show that:

• A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
• B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
• C) The intermingling saved Gondor
• D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor.

The Northern Line did not intermarry
This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6)

The Southern Line did intermarry
This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8)

The intermingling saved Gondor
This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10)

Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South.

Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11)

This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived.

The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor
The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15)

The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years.

It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form.

Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.

Notes:
(1) Index, The Silmarillion.
(2) Many Meetings, The Lord of the Rings
(3) The Council of Elrond, The Lord of the Rings
(4) Appendix A (iii), The Lord of the Rings
(5) Appendix A (v), The Lord of the Rings
(6) Appendix A (ii), The Lord of the Rings
(7) Appendix A (iv), The Lord of the Rings
(8) Ibid.
(9) Ibid.
(10) Ibid.
(11) Ibid.
(12) The Passing of the Grey Company, The Lord of the Rings
(13) Unfinished Tales & Appendix A (i.), the Lord of the Rings
(14) Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
(15) Unfinished Tales
(16) At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, The Lord of the Rings
(17) Helm’s Deep, The Lord of the Rings

I do love this essay!

 

[Halasían]

Halasían, would this Thorin be the same Thorin from that old site?

I'm not sure. Possibly. We did frequent a few of the ancient Middle Earth websites together. This may be one. May Thorin find this and answer?

 

[wondering]

I wonder how populated Eriador actually was before Elendil arrived. Certainly non-Numenorean Men (e.g. the Men of Bree) lived in Eriador. But I am not sure they were ever urbanized peoples or large/dense populations.

Bree is not very large; it's clearly diminished when we see it in LOTR, but in LOTR era it is a village. It could have been significantly larger in the past without being a major city.

The Men of Bree are related to the Dunlendings, who seem to be an early Iron Age culture - "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in UT says they had little mail armor, gaining it only "in loot or theft". Mail is pretty ancient, going back several centuries BC, so if the Dunlendings couldn't make it themselves despite having examples to work from, that doesn't say good things about their metalwworking capabilities. I'm not sure Dunland is urbanized either.

Other inhabitants of Eriador early on were probably related to the Northmen - relatives of the Edain who didn't make it all the way to Beleriand - but the Northmen cultures don't seem to have been heavily urbanized either, except Dale under Dwarven influence, and even it is called a "town" not a "city". The largest settlements may have been things like Esgaroth.

Come to think of it, are we ever told of any full-on cities of Men that aren't Numenorean/Dunedain derived?