Dumb question about 🐲dragons

[Kimmie_Ris]

Im kind of new to Tolkiens mythology, but it is my understanding that only Ilúvatar could create sentient races. Orcs are corrupted elves because of that right? I thought Morgoth created the dragons though. And They seem to be sentient to me? Im sure this is explained somewhere in one of the books, and i just haven't gotten there yet. But I got to thinking about it now and maybe someone would like to explain it to me.

 

[Miguel]

They're either Maiar or Morgoth breed them out of salamanders and the like.

 

[grendel]

That must be Ancalagon the Black (and a bit of yellow)!

 

[Elthir]

To speak of Glaurung specifically, at least . . . or to quote Tolkien about Glaurung anyway . . .

“Morgoth, who made him " ( . . . ) My father underlined the last three words in pencil, and faintly and barely legibly at the foot of the page he noted: "Glaurung must be a demon (contained in worm form)."

And Glaurung "spoke by the evil-spirit that was in him" [to Turin]
And his eyes were terrible "being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master"

And having only lightly touched upon the subject of Dragons, Elthir wrote no more, choosing to eat his ice cream.

🐾

 

[Kimmie_Ris]

"Glaurung must be a demon (contained in worm form)."

And Glaurung "spoke by the evil-spirit that was in him" [to Turin]

That's a great help, thank you!

 

[Miguel]

Umaiar.

 

[Elthir]

I'll just add that that's what Tolkien jotted at a given point in time anyway, and not published by the author himself. Of course I could say the same thing about heaps of Tolkienian material, but for myself, since I haven't (yet) done a more in-depth study of Tolkien's dragons, I'm not quite sure what to be sure of . . .

. . . except that, and generally speaking now, I know there were 🥚s involved at some point.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Elthir wrote no more, choosing to eat his ice cream

More importantly though, what flavor of ice cream?

 

[Ealdwyn]

Im kind of new to Tolkiens mythology, but it is my understanding that only Ilúvatar could create sentient races.

Aulë created the dwarves, although that's often said to be "sub-creation" because original creation is the province of Ilúvatar alone: that which is made by those created by Ilúvatar is derived from the works of the One.

 

[Elthir]

Orcs are corrupted elves because of that right?

Orc-spear to my throat, I'd have to guess that the following is what Tolkien "landed on" -- as far as I can tell in August 2020 that is -- with some "new" Tolkien material currently gearing up for publication. The Eldar said:

"Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Drúedain must have escaped his Shadow; . . ." JRRT, The Drúedain, note 5, Unfinished Tales

In any case, the matter of orc origins can get fairly complicated.

🐾

 

[Olorgando]

In any case, the matter of orc origins can get fairly complicated.

Nice understatement.
It is the question that leaves even "Who or what is Tom Bombadil" and "Do Balrogs have wings" far behind in scope and intensity of discussion (and certainly the one where JRRT had the most intense discussion with himself, so to speak).

 

[Miguel]

Honestly, i don't like the whole "Orcs breed from Men" as their origin. Doesn't it create too many problems with what's already written and read over and over?. Was it not something that eventually happens later on 2nd/3rd age?. Why change their origin when it was more than fine to begin with?.

 

[Elthir]

Honestly, i don't like the whole "Orcs breed from Men" as their origin. Doesn't it create too many problems with what's already written and read over and over?

But I read the author's note to The Druedain over and over

Why change their origin when it was more than fine to begin with?

We could simplify things this way: "The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days." [Appendix F]. And agree that, as Treebeard says, goblins were made in mockery of Elves -- which does not need to mean goblins were made from Elves, and which didn't mean that according to one of Tolkien's own scenarios.

Again, simpler at least, for an internal . . . [ahem] "answer"

 

[Miguel]

But I read the author's note to The Druedain over and over




We could simplify things this way: "The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days." [Appendix F]. And agree that, as Treebeard says, goblins were made in mockery of Elves -- which does not need to mean goblins were made from Elves, and which didn't mean that according to one of Tolkien's own scenarios.

Again, simpler at least, for an internal . . . [ahem] "answer"

Still, in this case i do like the Silmarillion's version better, it makes more sense to me and it's pretty cemented in my mind. Also, orcs breed from men makes them much less interesting imo and completely destroys the hunter of Cuiviénen legend with the elves taken to Utumno doesn't it?.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

That must be Ancalagon the Black (and a bit of yellow)!

It's baby Ancalagon.

 

[Elthir]

Still, in this case i do like the Silmarillion's version better, it makes more sense to me and it's pretty cemented in my mind.

There's this from The Silmarillion: "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known for a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor?"

I'd quote more but someone's put a line through the following passage in my book

Also, orcs breed from men makes them much less interesting imo and completely destroys the hunter of Cuiviénen legend with the elves taken to Utumno doesn't it?.

I don't think it need be destroyed.

"But it is known that Melkor had become aware of the Quendi before the Valar began their war against him, and the joy of the Elves in Middle-earth had already been darkened by shadows of fear. Dreadful shapes had begun to haunt the borders of their dwellings, and some of their people vanished into the darkness and were heard of no more."

"Some of these things may have been phantoms and delusions; but some were, no doubt, shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the Children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of the Maiar, who had the power, as had their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda."

This hails from Appendix C to Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar, part of which leads Tolkien to write
"Orc text X", wherein it's said that the idea of the main "stock" [of Orcs] being Men:
" . . . accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of orcs"

I broke the second passage above for easier reading here, but anyway, it's from the "intro" to Myths Transformed text 10, Morgoth's Ring, and thus not repeated in Appendix C to Quendi And Eldar, published in The War of the Jewels.

🐾

 

[Miguel]

There's this from The Silmarillion: "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known for a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor?"

I'd quote more but someone's put a line through the following passage in my book




I don't think it need be destroyed.

"But it is known that Melkor had become aware of the Quendi before the Valar began their war against him, and the joy of the Elves in Middle-earth had already been darkened by shadows of fear. Dreadful shapes had begun to haunt the borders of their dwellings, and some of their people vanished into the darkness and were heard of no more."

"Some of these things may have been phantoms and delusions; but some were, no doubt, shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the Children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of the Maiar, who had the power, as had their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda."

This hails from Appendix C to Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar, part of which leads Tolkien to write
"Orc text X", wherein it's said that the idea of the main "stock" [of Orcs] being Men:
" . . . accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of orcs"

I broke the second passage above for easier reading here, but anyway, it's from the "intro" to Myths Transformed text 10, Morgoth's Ring, and thus not repeated in Appendix C to Quendi And Eldar, published in The War of the Jewels.

🐾

What about the Dagor-nuin-Giliath?. Fëanor's host was attacked by Orcs and Men didn't even exist yet.

 

[Elthir]

For a quick response at the moment: in Myths Transformed text X [Orcs from Men plus Maiar orcs], the Awakening of Men is altered to provide for numerous Orcs upon Morgoth's return to Middle-earth.

🐾

 

[Elthir]

Now someone is supposed to ask: but what about the Awakening of the Men with the rising of the Sun. That's Mannish myth folks!

Elthir pokes wasp nest

 

[Alcuin]

Now someone is supposed to ask: but what about the Awakening of the Men with the rising of the Sun. That's Mannish myth folks!

Elthir pokes wasp nest

wasp responds:

I question “Mannish myth” here. I don’t believe Tolkien ever worked that out completely, and what is “Mannish myth” and what is “canon” are intertwined with questions about Galadriel. (Hope that gets your attention, Elthir (Galin)!)

Both Galadriel and Gandalf refer to a time before the rising of the sun, when the Two Trees were in bloom and only the stars shone in Middle-earth. There were Orcs in those days. So what is the origin of those Orcs? Are they mindless automatons, are they Umaiar, or are they warped Elves?

My vote is for warped Elves. That fits Treebeard’s statement that it was a mark of evil things that they could not abide the sun, but that Saruman’s Orcs (the Uruk-hai) seemed to be a mix of Orcs and Men. Tolkien’s speculations on other sources for Orcs seems based upon his later musings about Elves – very much like his later musings on Galadriel as a reflection of the Virgin Mary rather than as the permanently exiled sole surviving leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor.