Why was 🧙Saruman able to seize Shire uncontested?

[1stvermont]

You may disagree, but those are Aragorn's actual words during the Council of Elrond: that the task of the Dunedain is to keep the hobbits "simple" and, by doing so, keep them happy.

Keeping them ignorant and restricting their movements are two different things. Nobody said that their movements were restricted.

I agree with what you have said but differ on its meaning. Tolkien believed simple=happy, the ranger's job was to keep them happy and protected and allowed them to maintain a simple agrarian, libertarian society much as the one Tolkien was raised in. Because hobbits were happy, they lived in their own Eden-like existence and they did not care or desire to be troubled by the outside world. Bilbo was unique in this way and needed a push to even leave the Shire.

Perhaps I misunderstood. But I view the protection of the rangers as a service offered free of charge. So to me, it is not in any way of keeping hobbits ignorant since they can leave or do as they wish. No hobbits were restricted from gaining knowledge or moving beyond the shire. Did rangers prevent bilbo from writing books and telling tales of the wide world outside? No ranger kept Frodo, bilbo or the other hobbits from exploring ME, in fact, they continued to protect them wherever they went in ME. I think I just fundamentally disagree with the conclusion that protection is ignorance. When Boromir died trying to save merry and pip was he really just trying to keep them ignorant of Isengard, Saruman, and the torture they would endure? when Aragorn Gimli and Legolas followed the hobbits was it to keep them ignorant of the same? when Gandalf told Frodo to keep the ring secret was that to prevent hobbits from gaining knowledge about the ring? To keep things simple in Tolkiens mind was a good thing and not connected to keeping people ignorant.

Even if you think that was the right thing to do, it's only well and good as long as the rangers are able to maintain that level of protection. Unfortunately they weren't, due to the War, with the result that the hobbits were left vulnerable - more vulnerable than they would have been if they'd had some forewarning.

As for ignorance, they were unaware of the single greatest threat to their security in 3000 years! If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is.

I am a bit surprised you are taking the stance that offering one life with no reward and unknown [rangers -Tolkien held this up as honrabel] is in fact not a good thing.


This would be equal to saying having a military and police force are only good, so long as nothing bad ever happens. Besides if not for the rangers the hobbits would have never enjoyed there living. The takeover of the shire was short and dealt with soon. Tolkien was not a utopian, he believed in a fallen world here and in ME. Elrond wanted to send pip back to the shire foreseeing the evils that might come there, but Gandalf wanted him in the fellowship and that choice helped save ME. So the fate of ME or the Shire? if Me fell so then would the shire anyways. The rangers chose to go south and fight with Aragorn to help save the fate of ME. Yes this left the shire open but in fact saved the shire in the slightly longer run. The suffering that the simple [hobbits] suffered compared to knowledgable Gondorians, Roherim etc is not even close in comparison.

But if there's a chance that they might stampede, however small, wouldn't you want some warning?

The internet comparision doesn't work, because - in your words - you choose to be ignorant, and you choose what your children see. That's different from having the knowledge withheld from you. A better comparison would be to live in a society where the government controls the internet and the news coverage, so you only get state-sanctioned information. The state say they control the flow of information to "protect" you, but there could be any number of things going on in the outside world with the potential to impact your life.

As I said above, the hobbits' ignorance and naivety was necessary to serve the plot. But Aragorn deliberately kept them that way, and it was his conscious choice to do so that made them a pushover for Saruman.

Perhaps then I disagree with what was meant by Aragorn keeping them simple. Once more it is not like he went around controlling knowledge or stories of outside dangers from being heard at the Green dragon by traveling dwarves and elves. Its not like he barred hobbits from going to the prancing pony. The hobbits themselves did not like to travel even the folk of Buckland were "queer" and better ignored when your in Hobbiton. But when your in Buckland the reverse is true.


They were a pushover and Gondor was not, but who suffered more? besides as I said the hobbits were part of the takeover and it was not a military takeover but from within.

Spoiler

Note: hidden by mods due to unallowed content

In America we have many warning us of the socialistic and communistic takeover of government policies, but it is still we that chose it via voting. We are warned but we ignore. It was a steady takeover like in America done from within slow government exspansion, it was not a military takeover

Besides, the hobbits were ready to be roused when the heroes come back.

 

[Elthir]

Sorry to interject, but this, taken by itself . . .

"If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is." [Ealdwyn]

. . . is an awesome sentence

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Let's try to keep current politics out of the discussion, please.

 

[1stvermont]

Let's try to keep current politics out of the discussion, please.

Apologies. I was just pointing out a connection between how the shire was transformed and I thought it a great analogy since neither the shire or my example were taken by military might by another country but transformed from within.

Sorry to interject, but this, taken by itself . . .

"If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is." [Ealdwyn]

. . . is an awesome sentence

I was just wondering if you could be more specific and please enlighten me where I have gone astray.

Thanks.

One thing I was thinking of and I might be mistaken [this is going off memory] but didn't Gandalf tell the hobbits when they heard trouble was in the shire that all their trials have prepared them for this. That he knew it was so and it was time for the hobbits to handle things themselves.


Another thing I was thinking is that Aragorn passed a law that none of the big people could enter the shire without their sayso. I think it just points in another way to how the hobbits desired to be left alone by the outside world.

 

[Elthir]

I was just wondering if you could be more specific and please enlighten me where I have gone astray

Oh. My comment has nothing to do with this discussion or anyone going astray, it's just that Ealdwyn's sentence, alone by itself and as it is, made me chuckle a bit, that's all.

'Cause "not knowing" is one (if basic) definition of ignorance. Maybe it's just my odd sense of humour, but I liked the sentence itself, again, nothing to do with the discussion.

Sorry to interrupt

 

[1stvermont]

Oh. My comment has nothing to do with this discussion or anyone going astray, it's just that Ealdwyn's sentence, alone by itself and as it is, made me chuckle a bit, that's all.

'Cause "not knowing" is one (if basic) definition of ignorance. Maybe it's just my odd sense of humour, but I liked the sentence itself, again, nothing to do with the discussion.

Sorry to interrupt

sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sorry for another post but I was just reading Tom Shippy's J.R.R Tolkien Author of the century. He quotes Aragorn saying of Butterbur [Bree] lives within "a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly"

It makes me think of two things. If the men and hobbits of Bree and the shire were prepared and had knowledge of all the evils of the outside world [aginst there care/nature] what could they do? I would argue not a whole lot. They don't have the population and to change them into a warrior class of people in Tolkiens mind [who was often anti-war] would be a negative thing.

Another thought I had was we do not have all the knowledge of our military, social forces, intelligence agency etc they do that for us much like the rangers. Yet just like the hobbits we could enter if we desired into areas/jobs, training, etc to gain that knowledge if we desired to. I am not sure if we are different then the hobbits.

 

[Aldarion]

Yeah, here're the big doubt I list

1. Celebrities like Gandalf, Barliman and Bilbo have already make Shire not isolated anymore via commercial, adventure and all kinds of activities. This proved that Shire's role in ME has already a bit important on all kinds of aspects. Shire must not be so isolated that like some "Dark lands", after all, only the tobacco business is big enough to make Shire well-known enough, according to the popularity of smoking. When Saruman occupied Shire, all economic activities must.
2. Those non-combat personnel of the Northern Rangers were supposed to keep an eye on Shire, after all, at least the Prancy Pony is popular enough to be a tunnel of information, even if Aragorn left none of the combat personnel to defend their HQ in the Northern Battlefield. Succeeding point 1, these Northern Rangers non combat personnel might be the most possible to do this job due to the important economic role of Shire, at least on the business of tobacco.
3. Saruman is a big guy among the Dark Forces like Sauron, thus unless his track gets lost for centuries like Sauron getting defeated by the Last Alliance before, he must get "Wanted" by the Free People to make sure he's dead or alive at least. The Free People should hunt him down to the very end, as an result, Shire, already known by almost all the High Command like Aragorn, Gandalf, and so forth, should have sent at least intellectual agents to every corner they know even if it's not inhabited, it goes without saying about Shire.

I think you are looking at Middle Earth as if it were modern world. But look at how little English / Anglo-Saxons knew about goings-on in Byzantine Empire: in fact, it took Byzantium calling onto Pope for help for the West in general to notice anything is wrong. And that is in a world far more populated and with far denser and more extensive trade connections than Middle Earth.

Gondor knew that Shire existed and that's it (beyond what Denethor could gleam from Palantirs). To them, Hobbits were as mythological as elves and dwarves to us.

 

[Alcuin]

A couple of niggling points…

First (moving backward in the conversation) Anglo-Saxon England was not isolated from the Continent nor from civilization in general. True, the focus of Britain was no longer Continental as it had been during the (West) Roman Imperial period, having been turned northward toward the Germanic world, which though more primitive was itself turning to the old Roman model (cf. Charlemagne, who was crowned Emperor of the Romans in AD 800 by Pope Leo III), but it had not abandoned the wider world. I recall reading an account of a Byzantine princess, a daughter of the Emperor of Constantinople, who was wed to an Anglo-Saxon prince in a marriage meant to draw the Anglo-Saxons closer to the Byzantine world and cement, perhaps, a future alliance. (The Byzantines contested Charlemagne’s title “Emperor of the Romans”, and having allies of the Eastern Roman Empire behind him would benefit them in the event of conflict; and I suppose there were other reasons for their interests, too.) The account was written by the Anglo-Saxon prince’s mother, who complained that the princess refused to eat with her hands like the Anglo-Saxons, but insisted upon using a fork, which the Anglo-Saxons considered novel and, ironically enough, rude. Alas, the poor girl did not survive the rougher climate of northwestern Europe in its Dark Age, and died without issue, the prince taking another wife after her untimely demise.

I think the purposes of the Dúnedain Rangers of Arnor are misunderstood. Arnor had collapsed as a kingdom, but the Dúnedain survived, much reduced in numbers and power. As I understand matters (as I said before), they were living in the Angle between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen, which was outside the region they had mostly populated before the fall of Fornost but close to Rivendell for protection. The Rangers were the knights of that people, the warrior noblemen. Each was no doubt supported by a large number of “peasants”, if I may use that word: common folk involved in everyday business and farming, who provided the means and equipment for their adventures. These Rangers served several purposes. First, they screened and defended what amounted to a hidden refuge for the surviving Dúnedain. More importantly, though, they maintained the claim of the Dúnedain of Arnor over their old realm: this they constantly patrolled to keep out pests (such as wolves) and aggressors (such as Orcs). They remained “hidden”, but a better phrase would be they became forgotten, since during the Chieftainship of Aranarth son of Arvedui, the first Chieftain, everyone who met a Ranger would recognize him as a Dúnedain knight of old Arnor (Arthedain). But over time, memories faded, and the Rangers were just a wandering curiosity, and the people of what had been Arnor, mainly the Bree-folk and the Shire-folk, forgot who they were, so that Butterbur cites an adage of Bree to Frodo: “There's no accounting for East and West, … meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk.”

Just as their forefathers defended Arnor against invaders and dangerous creatures, the Rangers continued this work. The Shire (and Bree) became places of prosperity and remaining “urban” or semi-rural life, potential centers for the reconstitution of the Dúnedain kingdom; and eventually, they did serve as those centers, sources of income and wealth for the Fourth Age descendants of the Dúnedain. But in the meantime, all the Hobbits of both the Shire and Bree and all the Men of Bree came to regard the Rangers as odd wandering folk, and remembered nothing of their origin.

These people can hardly be blamed for being “simple folk … free from care and fear.” Look at us! We read this Tolkien board, post here in peace, and enjoy the fruits of the labors and lives of those who have gone before us, while outside our protected boundaries wars rage, civilians are slaughtered, and criminal gangs rule nations. We ignore the warning signs of the decay of our civilization and the deliberate, systematic undermining of its foundations, in some cases cheering on the vermin that accomplish it; and unlike Gondor, “evil arts [are] practised …, [and] the Nameless One … named in honour”.

Do not condemn the Rangers for maintaining the peace of their former realm, for thereby they both maintained their claim over Arnor of old and defended their populace and what remained of their civilization until both could be raised again after more than a thousand years. Nor should any condemn the Shire-folk or Bree-folk: we, like they, are mostly ignorant of what defends us, and of what threatens us.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...ut over time, memories faded, and the Rangers were just a wandering curiosity, and the people of what had been Arnor, mainly the Bree-folk and the Shire-folk, forgot who they were, so that Butterbur cites an adage of Bree to Frodo: “There's no accounting for East and West, … meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk.”...

Hmmm....yeah, you're right, as market demand for professional military forces around Shire decreased, Rangers're supposed to start becoming small guys, making them less well-known. As an result, their pronounced message would hardly receive wide reflection and alerts. And those vendors in charge of the Ranger's logistic were the similarly infamous as well.

...I think you are looking at Middle Earth as if it were modern world. But look at how little English / Anglo-Saxons knew about goings-on in Byzantine Empire: in fact, it took Byzantium calling onto Pope for help for the West in general to notice anything is wrong. And that is in a world far more populated and with far denser and more extensive trade connections than Middle Earth...

I thought the tobaccos corporation was as tremendous as the silk in history. Just like the Byzantine-Persia War, the cut-off of silk led to the Islami's uprising. Well...even if that's so, it seems I really overestimate the relativity between areas in ME XD

...ne description that would fit the entirety of the free peoples realms of Middle-earth is, decentralization. It affects politics, culture, trade, knowledge, and many other areas. Because each group is allowed free will to govern themselves as they desire...

Oh yes, I forgot it's already the 3rd Age, superpower like Numenor hardly exist, even the strongest among all the states of 3rd Age ME, Gondor, could even hardly as"world dominant" as Numenor. Thus, the ME's globalization must have decreased.

 

[Aldarion]

I thought the tobaccos corporation was as tremendous as the silk in history. Just like the Byzantine-Persia War, the cut-off of silk led to the Islami's uprising. Well...even if that's so, it seems I really overestimate the relativity between areas in ME XD

Relativity was one, awareness was another. Roman Empire was impacted by expansion of China despite having only the vaguest of ideas about it.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...Relativity was one, awareness was another...

We all know the Gladden Fields located in the heartlands of Gondor while Free People's intellectual agents couldn't find it's ambushed orcs after the Last Alliance. We can also assume all Shire communication institutes had been under control by Saruman. Most of all, JRRT didn't mention the high command of Free People notice this or not.
Ahhh yes, even if in modern age, military reaction takes days if, it goes without saying in ME. Even if the wars between my country and PROC, the US reinforcement won't be able to come just in time, OFC like Shire, I and my fellows are on my own XD. Maybe the Free People had send armed forces to save Shire far after Frodo and his fellows kick Saruman's ass.

 

[Alcuin]

A few minor points:

1. Gladden Fields was well outside any territory controlled by the Dúnedain: it was neither in Gondor nor in Arnor. The closest realm to Gladden Fields was Lothlórien, then under the rulership of Amroth, but it was “far behind”, while the realm of Thranduil was still “four days” distant. The “heartland” of Gondor was probably the along lower Anduin: Ithilien, Anórien, Lebennin, and Belfalas. The Orcs that attacked Isildur and his guard were assailed by “Orcs of the Mountains” led and strengthened by “grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes” of the Misty Mountains. (There was apparently a minor pass at the top of the source of the Gladden River. All these citations are from Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”.) These Orcs and their commanders were unaware of the outcome of the War of the Last Alliance two years before. (Op. cit., footnote 20)
2. Saruman did indeed control official communication in the Shire through Lotho Sackville-Baggins, his principle agent, who had converted the old Post Service to carry “secret messages”. (See “Scouring of the Shire” in RotK.)
3. There was no “high command” of the Free Peoples. The closest that might approach that were the Council of Elrond and the Captains of the West at the “Last Debate”. The Council of Elrond was a unique and singular event that not even Elrond summoned, but that he said was fated to be, implying the will of Eru operating through the people of Middle-earth. The Captains of the West at the “Last Debate” probably approaches a combination of the (King’s) Councils of Gondor and Arnor, but again, it was an ad hoc, unusual event, determined more by the needs of the times, though it no doubt lasted until “Many Partings” when the Rangers of Arnor and the Sons of Elrond returned north.
4. There were no “armed forces” to send to the Shire. The Rangers had returned, but they likely returned to their own homes (presumably in the Angle between Greyflood and Loudwater near Rivendell) before they resumed their patrols.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...There was no “high command” of the Free Peoples...

Alright alright, just let me prune it as high command of each Free People's factions😅😅😅