Did 🧝Galadriel or Celebrimbor establish Eregion?

[TheManInTheMoon]

The same reason he didn't include 90% of Second Age in Appendix B.

I don't think I need to give examples because I know you are an expert and you know what I am talking about.

Tolkien's only definite comment on Eregion's foundation is from the appropriate entry in the Tale of Years (The Lord of the Rings Appendix B): '750 Eregion founded by the Noldor.' This is a curiously general statement: Celebrimbor's history is well developed in the book, and we would expect his name to appear here if he was Eregion's founder.

As I said Celebrimbor can well be the founder of Eregion. It's just Merry and Pippin weren't sure of it hence they didn't include this. The same for Galadriel. My friend suggests Eregion had no official sole founder, but after Annatar came around people chose Celebrimbor as their official supreme ruler and rejected Galadriel who had gone mad (as they wrongly deemed).

Tolkien was planning to publish the full story in Silmarillion for the readers, not in Appendix B where a lot of history is 'lost' and too vague. Word.

But unfortunately he had abandoned Of the Rings of Power a long time ago. Christopher and Guy Kay had great part in devising this chapter in published Silmarillion. Not JRR himself.

What are you talking about concerning Galadriel's hair? Didn't you know he actually changed Galadriel's hair color? Haha. Galadriel's hair color is "deep gold" in FotR. But ever since 1968, it was golden-silver. In Shibbileth, in Letters, in later writings included in Nature, Galadriel's hair color was golden but also shot with silver.

Is her new hair not Canon? Depends what you are defining about 'Canon'. LotR is a translation of the Red Book. It is natural that a misstype would've accorded in Frodo's writing that went through several editions through Hobbits and Gondorians. And it is natural and acceptable that Tolkien the translator of the Red Book commited a mistranslation here.

OK, what I get from you is that you are implying: Oropher is not canon, Amdir is not canon, Galadriel and Celeborn being present in the destruction of Beleriand is not canon, Celeborn as a Sinda is not canon (if you treat FOTR full superior canon), G&C associations with Harlindon and Eregion and South Greenwood is not canon, the Cosmology of the world is...?, Noldor of Eregion migrating also to Lindon and Lorien (aside from Rivendell) after the fall is not canon, Galadriel's hair shining like the Two Trees is not canon, Galadriel's rejection of the second pardon of the Valar when offered to her is not canon, and so many other things are not canon.

"A complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all at heavy and needless cost." The foreword to the Silmarillion.

 

[Elthir]

What are you talking about concerning Galadriel's hair?

As I said: "And to invent a silly (but thus easy) example . . ."

. . . an example that goes with the commentary that follows it.

Didn't you know he actually changed Galadriel's hair color? Haha. Galadriel's hair color is "deep gold" in FotR. But ever since 1968, it was golden-silver. In Shibbileth, in Letters, in later writings included in Nature, Galadriel's hair color was golden but also shot with silver.

Here you refer to Galadriel's changing hair colour without mentioning that it was once white according to draft text for The Lord of the Rings, sooo . . .

. . . didn't you know?

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

So Tolkien chooses to add that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion for the second edition, but decides not to add one sentence about Galadriel founding Eregion

Neither did he for Celebrimbor.

There are a lot of things not included in Appendices. Even sometimes things that would've took one word to include.

Nor the Celeborn "sidekick" idea

So you are eager to accept the texts where Celeborn founds realms but Galadriel's name is not stated in these foundations of Celeborn's realms (even though she was with him and helped him) yet your stereotypes doesn't allow you to accept Galadriel founded a realm without Celeborn (even though he was with her and helped her). Patriarchy.

what I consider canon: Tolkien published text.

They contradict themselves lol. They contradict a lot of other things that Tolkien considered to make definite (Oropher for instance).

Merry obtained assistance and information from Rivendel

And yet Frodo himself who had greater sources presented at least two 'wrong' information about Galadriel. Let alone Merry. He didn't present any wrong information about Galadriel although, just lack of information. Like us, he wasn't sure which document about Eregion is true. It is evident he left it vague. Not to mention, his writings went through several editions and editorial stuff in Gondor. An slip is natural. (And not to mention Tolkien often did 'hasty' writings)

In any case, you can't be so sure about Celebrimbor being the founder of Eregion. It's not explicitly stated there.

And the many evidences I provided in the post, along with valid logic, puts further doubt on Celebrimbor being the founder of Eregion.

But sure, it is a possibility still that he was.

 

[Elthir]

Ah. Decided to delete my second post. Didn't know you had responded yet.

Anyway I don't know why you think it's humourous that certain parts of Tolkien published texts arguably (or "seemingly") contradict themselves. Tolkien published them. They are canon. As I said before, certain "seeming" contradictions can be dealt with internally.

And I reject your inference/claim of "stereotypes" by the way. Such a thing has nothing to do with
my response to you claiming that Celeborn was just a "sidekick" and thus not an "official" founder of Eregion -- despite that he was (again according to you) with Galadriel when she founded Eregion.

To me this looks like reaching, because you think Celeborn doesn't fit with the entry in Appendix B.

Also incidentally, in the larger legendarium, some contradictions are on purpose (see The Drowning of Anadune, for example).

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Anyone with an IQ higher than 65 (no offense) can see these contradictions are obvious and can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away. Just like how Christopher Tolkien ignored a lot of statements in the Hobbit revised edition and both editions of LOTR when he edited and published the Silmarillion. Just like how JRR Tolkien himself ignored the statements he had already made and published things contradicting, and was planning to publish even more contradicting stuff. But the name is on it, The Revised Edition. And a Second Revised Edition was undeniable. I guess he also would've corrected Celeborn and Galadriel abandoned origin in FotR. Just like how he corrected 'Caras Galadon' mistype. Just like how he made some new takes in the Palantir chapter. But it's possible he would've still ignored he had published a whole different origin for G&C in 1954, compared to both Sindarin Celeborn and Telerin Celeborn.

 

[Elthir]

Anyone with an IQ higher than 65 (no offense) can see these contradictions are obvious and can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away.

You don't even refer to any specific "contradictions" here!

Which ones specifically "can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away."

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

I have already pointed out dozens of these contradictions. The only internal point of view that can work is if we see these contradictions are made by flawed in-universe loremasters and perhaps by the flawed Tolkien the translator. They are not God, they aren't perfect, they can make mistakes.

 

[Elthir]

Well, generally speaking, over the years I've found the opinions -- with respect to contradictions within the Tolkien published corpus -- to be fairly subjective among Tolkien readers.

One person sees X as a contradiction -- often enough, different people chime in and discuss whether a given internal reason (if and when raised, of course) is compelling "enough" or not -- to smooth away said "contradiction" -- before resorting to "error by translator" or similar.

Depends upon the matter in question, obviously.

 

[Akhôrahil]

But unfortunately he had abandoned Of the Rings of Power a long time ago. Christopher and Guy Kay had great part in devising this chapter in published Silmarillion. Not JRR himself.

Which book in which page supports your claim that Christopher and Guy Kay had "great Part in devising" this chapter in the published Silmarillion? Have you read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien where he mentions Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (without using this title of the chapter)? Have you read The references to Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in The History of Middle-earth series of books? I mentioned some of these references in the entry Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age on Tolkien Gateway. In the chapter The Tale of Years of the Second Age in The Peoples of Middle-earth it can be Seen that the history of the Second Age was more detailed in earlier drafts of that chapter and from a letter from the publisher that Tolkien was under pressure to shorten at least that chapter. However, after the publications of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien was asked to make changes to create a second edition to justify obtaining a copyright for this second edition in the United Staates, because the first edition did not have a copyright there. So Tolkien had an opportunity to insert things again and space constraints were no longer much of an issue. It is useful to read The History of The Lord of the Rings books and The Peoples of Middle-earth, but also The History of The Hobbit with his attempt for writing a new edition of The Hobbit that was more consistent with The Lord of the Rings and its map. My impression was that Tolkien considered the published The Lord of the Rings as the benchmark and wanted to make his past (The Hobbit) and planned future publications (The Silmarillion) consistent with The Lord of the Rings by for example changing The Hobbit. By the way, it is never mentioned explicitly that Celeborn was a Sindar (or Grey elf) in The Lord of the Rings. The only book that was published during Tolkien's lifetime that mentions this explicitly is The Road Goes Ever On.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Yes Tolkiengateway has a reference to HoME, saying Chris and Guy Kay had a great part in Of the Rings of Power.

Where did I say Of the Rings of Power is wholly made up by Chris? I very well know that letter from 1948 and that manuscript from pre1954.

But I still stand by my point that Tolkien abandoned Of the Rings of Power. The information in Of the Rings of Power contradicts a lot of post-1965 writings. Like, non-existence of Galadriel and Celeborn in Eregion. Or the fact that Celebrimbor had no origin there and it was Chris who edited it and gave him an origin based on his father's Appendix B and notes. And some other things that doesn't match up with the later writings (like the mention of non-Lindon Elves listening to Annatar). Now not to mention Tolkien never ever came back to revise the later chapters of the Silmarillion in later years of his life.

Celeborn was a confirmed Sinda in Appendices published in 1955: "many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest."

In revised edition of the Appendices it is taken even further by declaring him as the close kinsman of King Thingol of Doriath. Not to mention that Celeborn is ruling a full Sindarin realm in Harlindon. But yeah he isn't explicitly stated as a Sinda in this section, though it's suggested strongly, and anyone who has read the first edition would've known Tolkien had said Celeborn is a Sinda in Appendices. Contracting himself by saying Celeborn passed eastwards in SA, while in FOTR Galadriel passed eastwards in FA alone and met Celeborn who had already lived in the Eastwards of the Westlands.

 

[Elthir]

Yes Tolkiengateway has a reference to HoME, saying Chris and Guy Kay had a great part in Of the Rings of Power

Your were asked: "Which book in which page" supports your claim that Christopher and Guy Kay had "great part in devising" this chapter in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien Gateway currently reads:
"It is not known how much of this chapter was written or edited by Christopher Tolkien and
Guy Kavriel Kay after Tolkien's death in 1973."

And their "however" that follows this . . . ["However, Christopher Tolkien mentions an "original manuscript of Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". He also refers to "one of the earliest texts of the work Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (and so on)]. . . . has nothing to say about CJRT having a great part in devising this chapter . . .

. . . indeed they do end the paragraph with this: "Christopher Tolkien mentions that notes on Celebrimbor son of Curufin were the basis of the passages introduced editorially in Of the Rings of Power."

So far anyway (maybe you have another answer, maybe there will be something in NOME), in my opinion, this much hardly constitutes a "great part" with respect to CJRT and Guy Kay devising this chapter, even according to this web source.

Where did I say Of the Rings of Power is wholly made up by Chris? I very well know that letter from 1948 and that manuscript from pre1954.

You didn't say that. Nor did Akhôrahil say you did

 

[Alcuin]

TheManInTheMoon, I think you’re trying to drag an absolute answer or position from a bevy of texts that are sometimes in confusion and occasional outright contradictions. Outside Lord of the Rings, much of Tolkien’s work contains contradictions, pieces that don’t fit together quite right. (Even internally to Lord of the Rings, there are a few hanging threads and rough edges.) There are different ways to resolve these: One of the best is to follow the lead of Christopher Tolkien, who knew more about his father’s work than anyone else after JRRT died. We do well to remember that one primary reason JRRT never published Silmarillion during his lifetime is that he could never get all the stories into the kind of finished form in which he had Lord of the Rings, nor could he resolve all the loose ends of his own tales. Even the Three Great Tales – Beren and Lúthien, Children of Húrin, and Fall of Gondolin – contain internal contradictions, not to mention conflicting connections between one another and the main thrust of the rest of the story, and they were the oldest of Tolkien’s tales! CJRT presented them at the end of his life with their fragmentary coattails showing for all to see, yet they remain beautiful stories nevertheless.

You can (and should!) argue vigorously for your point, but you cannot require everyone else to agree with you.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Yes Alcuin, I said this several times, I don't want to make everyone agree with me. I was just discussing things and I learned even few things in this discussion. (Like the fact that Tolkien had amended a bit of CG&C draft in 1966 and this was a great help)

I don't know if it has anything to do with any of your assessment, but in HoME Christopher said he composed the published Silmarillion too hasty and he would've published a different work if he had put more time on it.

 

[Elthir]

(Like the fact that Tolkien had amended a bit of CG&C draft in 1966 and this was a great help)

Can you remind us where you get the fact of 1966 specifically?

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Can you remind us where you get the fact of 1966 specifically?

Already told you. In 1966 (or about 1966) Tolkien switched the names of Finarfin and Finrod. And in CG&C we see Galadriel is referred to the daughter and the sister of these guys with their new names.

A bit further into CG&C Celebrimbor is introduced as the follower of G&C and a smith of Gondolin. But beside this passage, against this passage, Tolkien has written a text: "it would be better to make him a descendant of Feanor". This note against this passage was published and explained in People of Middle-earth by Chris.

Celebrimbor as the descendant of Feanor was published in 1966. Interesting that Tolkien didn't put any note against the statements that Galadriel founded Eregion from a passage prior to the introduction of Celebrimbor, and also no note is there against the statement that Celebrimbor was a follower of Galadriel and Celeborn, the very same passage where Tolkien put his better to make him a Feanorian note.

Even in last years of his life Tolkien still believed Celebrimbor is a follower of Celeborn of the Teleri (and ultimately Galadriel, because Celeborn himself only left Aman to follow the love of Galadriel into Exile).

 

[Elthir]

Already told you. In 1966 (or about 1966) Tolkien switched the names of Finarfin and Finrod. And in CG&C we see Galadriel is referred to the daughter and the sister of these guys with their new names.

You said Tolkien amended "a bit" of CG&C in 1966, so are you here saying Galadriel as a daughter of Finarfin is an emendation made in 1966?

Just trying to clarify.

A bit further into CG&C Celebrimbor is introduced as the follower of G&C and a smith of Gondolin. But beside this passage, against this passage, Tolkien has written a text: "it would be better to make him a descendant of Feanor". This note against this passage was published and explained in People of Middle-earth by Chris.

Yes, in note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men, CJRT notes that much. And then he says "thus" in the second edition of The Lord of The Rings, JRRT added the sentence about Celebrimbor.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

so are you here saying Galadriel as a daughter of Finarfin is an emendation made in 1966?

Galadriel was his daughter since 1951. What I'm saying is that back then in 1951, Finarfin's name was Finrod. Tolkien changed the names in 1966 (or about 1966).

Hence this emendation of this text must've happened in 1966 (or about 1966): "Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund."

Before 1966 Galadriel was the sister of Inglor and the daughter of Finrod.

And also the fact that Celebrimbor was turned into a Feanorian in 1966, and there's a Tolkien text written in this CG&C draft about Celebrimbor the Feanorian.

 

[Elthir]

What I'm saying is that back then in 1951, Finarfin's name was Finrod.

Agreed so far.

Tolkien changed the names in 1966 (or about 1966). Hence this emendation of this text must've happened in 1966 (or about 1966): "Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund."

First, when did JRRT imagine, or put to paper, that Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin?

Grey Annals section 193, commentary " . . . but in view of the occurrence of "Finrod Inglor the Fair" in a text associated with drafting for Aragorn's story on Weathertop (VI. 187-8) it seems possible that my father had considered the shifting of the names (whereby Inglor became Finrod and Finrod his father became Finarfin) long before their appearance in print in the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings."

Ok. Possible. But in any case, back to Galadriel . . . and where is the name Finarfin specifically? Certain LQ2 texts illustrate the change of Finrod to Finarfin. When were these changes made? Hard to tell.

We can't read JRRT's mind of course, but in Quendi And Eldar "fairly certainly dated to the years 1959-60 (Christopher Tolkien), JRRT wrote: " . . . notably in the case of Finarfin, and in his children Finrod and Galadriel."

A version of Finwe and Miriel dated to the later 1950s: (footnote) Finarphin revised to Finarfin.

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Christopher Tolkien offers a date of 1959. "Finrod son of Finarfin"

Hammond and Scull offer a date for the original composition of CG&C: perhaps later 1950s.

Before 1966 Galadriel was the sister of Inglor and the daughter of Finrod.

At least as far as written evidence goes (that I could find so far), Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin possibly as early as 1959-60.

Again, going by Christopher Tolkien's recommended dates here.

And also the fact that Celebrimbor was turned into a Feanorian in 1966, and there's a Tolkien text written in this CG&C draft about Celebrimbor the Feanorian.

Celebrimbor the Feanorean was published in the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings. But the reason I jumped in here is because you stated: "like the fact that Tolkien had amended a bit of
CG&C draft in 1966"

Thus, again, what is this based on? I'm not saying it isn't based on anything, but so far what we have here is note 7 to Of Dwarves and Men wherein Christopher Tolkien reveals that a passage was added
against CG&C in which his father noted it was better to make Celebrimbor a Feanorean.

He doesn't say when it was added. And in his bracketed commentary in CG&C, Christopher Tolkien merely describes: "the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor."

And in his initial commentary to CG&C, he vaguely states that this text was composed "after the publication of The Lord of The Rings" based in part because the text has Galadriel as the daughter
of Finarfin and so on. And then he simply says -- generally speaking -- the text is much emended, and
it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later.

Again I'm simply trying to clarify what your statement above is based on.

And maybe NOME will add more details here, maybe not.

 

[Elthir]

Just read (admittedly quickly at a bookstore) most of Galadriel and Celeborn from The Nature of Middle-Earth.

Text 1 deals with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn related "stuff" . . . and in a draft here, at least Tolkien directly states that Galadriel and Celeborn rejected Sauron in Eregion (and thus Sauron works on Celebrimbor) -- compare to the wording in Unfinished Tales (Sauron bearing her scorn and so on).

And that much noted (I'll get a less rushed reading soon in any case), emphasis on according to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.

 

[m4r35n357]

First, when did JRRT imagine, or put to paper, that Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin?

Sitting this one out & enjoying the sport, but just to mention that black text is really difficult to read in Dark Mode, if you are interested in such feedback