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Did 🧝Galadriel and Celeborn fight in ⚔️War of Wrath?

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"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

This quote does not imply that no Elves from Beleriand participated in the War.

What it do tell us is that the events of the journey, from Valinor to the battlefields in Middle-earth, were mostly unknown to the Elves in Beleriand - since they were already in Beleriand.

"But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath."

This was the last time JRR Tolkien revised War of Wrath chapter, which was in 1937.

As is clear above, Fionwë/Eönwë "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East" to battle, meaning the Elves of Beleriand joined.

It should be noted that in the 1948 version of Galadriel where she was in Lorien at the time of War of Wrath, it is said "too late she heard the summons of Fionwë". This means the Elves from east of the Misty Mountains did not participate in WoW. They heard the summons too late. (Celeborn and Galadriel were in Beleriand in 1955-1972 versions)

From the 1973 version of Galadriel and Celeborn: "In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age"

As is clear above, Galadriel and Celeborn did not join in the war against Angband because the Valar did not send aid and nobdoy listened to their advise. After the Valar sent aid and Eonwë summoned them, they must've answered and moved from Eriador to Beleriand to participate in War of Wrath. There was now no reason to not join. Their problem was solved; the Valar sent aid.

In the "Canonical" version of Galadriel and Celeborn their reason to not join in the war against Morgoth must've been wholly different. These reasonings from the 1973 version do not appear in the earlier versions of them. Canonically Celeborn was a Prince of Doriath and was a subject of Thingol, and Thingol had banned his people from participating in the war. Galadriel was a rebel leader and she had heard from Mandos that the Valar won't aid them and she willingly rejected the message of Mandos, as opposed to her 1973 version in which she wasn't present during Mandos speech and she wasn't a rebel. She became a subject of Thingol, and therefore she was banned from participating in the war. But given her character description, I highly doubt if she cared about Thingol's command. Her reasons to not flee from Doriath and join the war must've been wholly different. If she had disobeyed Thingol, she could never return to Doriath to see her husband and her bestfriend. And. "she did not love the sons of Feanor" "she burned with desire ... to thwart him [Feanor]", these and many other quotes about her hatred towards Feanor and his sons tell us that she was not willing to aid Feanorians in their wars. But I think the bigger factor was her good listening ears for the guidance and wisdom of Melian. "and of her she learned great wisdom and lore concerning Middle-earth." Melian must've talked her out of this and convinced her to remain in Doriath.

In the 1955-1972 versions, the canon versions, Galadriel and Celeborn were present in Beleriand during the War of Wrath. They never departed over Ered Luin until early Second Age. They were most probably in Balar when Eonwë reached to Hithlum. There was now no reasons for G&C to not fight. Therefore, they must've definitely answered the summons and fought in this war.
 
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Glad I read your whole post and not just the title ;)

This is currently a hot issue elsewhere, for various reasons, your post seems to resonate in a few areas with mine here.
 
As is clear above, Fionwë/Eönwë "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East" to battle, meaning the Elves of Beleriand joined.
Objection! Hithlum and Beleriand are distinct parts of First Age Middle-earth west of the Ered Luin. Hithlum was to the north-west of Beleriand, separated from West Beleriand by mountains. Also, I would guess that Beleriand was depopulated as far as Elves and Men went, and the distance to East Beleriand was quite a stretch for any summons to reach in any reasonable time.
 
This was the last time JRR Tolkien revised War of Wrath chapter, which was in 1937.

Just to add, Tolkien made cursory emendations to the conclusion of QS later, concerning which, however, Christopher Tolkien warns readers that this "action" need not mean the section was fully
updated at this later time.

Also, a later addition (later than QS HOME V or AB2) to The Tales of Years is yet another ingredient in this War or Wrathy soup in any case, which notation has been raised in the thread m4r35n357 linked to.

🐾
 
Objection! Hithlum and Beleriand are distinct parts of First Age Middle-earth west of the Ered Luin. Hithlum was to the north-west of Beleriand, separated from West Beleriand by mountains. Also, I would guess that Beleriand was depopulated as far as Elves and Men went, and the distance to East Beleriand was quite a stretch for any summons
You know very well I meant the Elves who had lived in Beleriand, and now were in Ossiriand and Balar etc, heard and answered the summons.

Tolkien made cursory emendations to the conclusion of QS later,
Did he amend the whole chapter or did he write anything against the paragraphs quoted from the1937 Silmarillion? There isn't any as far as I know.
 
Just to add it here, The Tale of Years (WJ) version A (again, later that QS HME V or AB2 at least):
540: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand
and take refuge in the Isle Balar."


[547: The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]
 
You know very well I meant the Elves who had lived in Beleriand, and now were in Ossiriand and Balar etc, heard and answered the summons.
"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
This quote does not imply that no Elves from Beleriand participated in the War.
I see "none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands" quite differently; the statement is unequivocal.
For that matter I also seriously doubt that there were any Elves left in Hithlum. Men, yes, but many if not most of those must have been Easterlings.
Seems JRRT had some serious revising to do to these passages from 1937, which he never got around to.
 
Just to add it here, The Tale of Years (WJ) version A (again, later that QS HME V or AB2 at least):
540: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand
and take refuge in the Isle Balar."


[547: The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]
[540] (LAB, the Later Annals of Beleriand) already says that the sons of Feanor had retreated there from Amon Ereb (presumably with the remnants of Sirion from the third kinslaying), so that is more of a clarification (and therefore a ratification of LAB) than a change to the story I think.
[547] in LAB already pretty much says this, so the TOY again ratifies the existing story rather than indicating any changes.

The Balar thing does make it more plausible that they did not take part, but they still could have gone if they wanted to, I think. They were included in the summons by any reading that I can make (and the "strict" definition of Beleriand is not enough to convince me otherwise!). I wonder now (last free Elves) about the Green Elves, they stayed in Beleriand to populate Lindon as I understand things . . . . did they really go to Balar first?.

The most interesting part to me in the TOY is the idea of the sons of Feanor intercepting the dwarves, and finding the necklace "not there". But I digress.

I see "none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands" quite differently; the statement is unequivocal.
But that sentence only really gains meaning via non-canon (CT) deletion of the following sentence about the summons. If the two sentences are read together they are potentially confusing. SInce the "none of those elves" statement doesn't really add a great deal to the narrative (and also makes the Elves look ungracious compared with the Edain, who did fight), I would have been inclined to drop the first sentence and retain the summons.

Then this horrible misunderstanding would not have arisen ;)
 
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From Hithlum unto the East... Eonwë's summons reached to Eriador. Let alone Balar. I mean, if I was Finarfin, I would've sent at first to my daughter and the descendant that I had never seen. And we know GilGalad and Galadriel were two of the most valiant Elves, far more brave than all the Edain. They both had fought in far worse desperate battles which they had barely any chance of surviving. It's funny to assume they didn't answer the summons of their father and forefather and the Herald and preferred to be cowards.

Definitely they and Cirdan led the Elves of Balar to join with the host of Eonwë.

Since Tolkien never settled on a decision (especially in regards to Galadriel & Celeborn) I don't think we can say for sure. Choose the one that sits best in your mind.
The version in which G&C were in Lorien in FA was completely abandoned. Period.

Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, or you go by the latest version where they were in Eriador, they heard the summons sooner or later. If anyone fought, it must've been these two. Since Tolkien unambiguous stated the reasons why they didn't fight against Angband, both directly explicitly and indirectly explicitly. Now in the time of WoW none of their reasons of not fighting against Angband existed anymore, they were solved. The only way you can say they didn't fight in WoW is by assuming they were injured heavily and they were unable to fight (and that's a far of a wild and odd assumption).
 
The context is "hither lands"; that's everything east of the Great Sea.
Elves who did fight in the Host of the Valar were the Vanyar (the "Spear-Elves") and those Noldor who had not left Valinor during the rebellion.
The Teleri pointedly did not, due to the attack on Alqualondë and the first Kin-slaying during the rebellion of the followers of Fëanor, but at least they manned the ships that brought the others east to Middle-earth (though they refuse to set foot "here", IIRC).
"Hither lands" is also unequivocal, then. "Dwelt" would mean everywhere, and "suffered" all Elves west of the Blue Mountains - maybe even some east.
 
We know what hither lands mean. We are arguing that the people of Hither Lands did not know much about the journey of the host of the Valar from Valinor to the north of Middle-earth. Then Tolkien proceeds to tell us that at last the host of the Valar reached to Middle-earth and summoned the Elves of Middle-earth to join them.

It's unambiguously stated Elrond was in the host of the Valar during the fall of the Mountains of Morgoth. Elrond was a loremaster and he and Bilbo wrote the histories. But Elrond just like the other Elves of Middle-earth did not know much about the journey of the host of the Valar to Middle-earth. Because he already was in Middle-earth. He only joined the host of the Valar after he heard the summons of Eonwë.
 
Definitely they [I assume here you mean GilGalad and Galadriel] and Cirdan led the Elves of Balar to join with the host of Eonwë.
Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, ...
Second point first: there is no canon version in the strict sense; that's your preference, which you are absolutely free to make, obviously.
I just disagree, definitely.
And as to Galadriel (and that might - must? - imply Celeborn) being on Balar - I'd like a quote of where that is ever stated explicitly (book please; though I have all of HoMe, there are parts that refuse to stick in memory).
 
there is no canon version
What I meant by "Canon" was a reference to author published statements in LOTR Appendices and RGEO.

And as to Galadriel (and that might - must? - imply Celeborn) being on Balar
They were on Balar as much as GilGalad (Arafinwian versions) and Celebrimbor were. In other word, none of these are explicitly stated to be on Balar. But it's stated that they were in Beleriand. And it's stated that the Elves of Nargothrond and Doriath retreated to Sirion. And it's stated that Cirdan took them to Balar.

They had no other places to go, except to cross the mountains, which they didn't until Second Age.
 
We know what hither lands mean.
You know what Hither Lands means to you. Please don't assume you know what it means to me; I do not assume I know what it means to you.
I'm a bookworm, but except for JRRT my reading is overwhelmingly non-fiction. My (our) personal "library" consist of way over 1,000 books. In my reading, I've come across all to many quotes of what I call "preemptive we's". By now, I do not react kindly to them. It's the matter of unchallenged assumptions, and there are very few assumptions I come across that I do not challenge. Let's put it this way: I have not mellowed with age, quite the contrary.
 
What I meant by "Canon" was a reference to author published statements in LOTR Appendices and RGEO.


They were on Balar as much as GilGalad (Arafinwian versions) and Celebrimbor were. In other word, none of these are explicitly stated to be on Balar. But it's stated that they were in Beleriand. And it's stated that the Elves of Nargothrond and Doriath retreated to Sirion. And it's stated that Cirdan took them to Balar.

They had no other places to go, except to cross the mountains, which they didn't until Second Age.
Those are assumptions that have some correlational merit. But not causal, which I have the impression (perhaps wrongly) that you are implying.
Causality, correlation, coincidence - you could find the odd post of mine where I take a very strict line on their relative occurrence (though, to be truthful, scattered as they are in threads and time, I might have trouble finding them myself).
 
[540] (LAB, the Later Annals of Beleriand) . . .

Ach (with German ach-laut sound)! I thought we were calling this AB2 ;)

already says that the sons of Feanor had retreated there from Amon Ereb (presumably with the remnants of Sirion from the third kinslaying), so that is more of a clarification (and therefore a ratification of LAB) than a change to the story I think.

Yes. AB2 [540] Maedros and Maglor dwelt in hiding "in the south of Eastern Beleriand, about Amon Ereb," but Morgoth sent against them, and they fled to Balar: "Now Morgoth's triumph was complete, and none were left there, Elves of Men, save such as his thralls."

If this TOY reference is indeed a ratification of AB2 (TOY: "The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar.") who is Eonwe summoning (QS HOMEV) "all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East"?

I'm not arguing, b'just trying to clarify your interpretation of this part.

The Balar thing does make it more plausible that they did not take part, but they still could have gone if they wanted to, I think.

And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.
 
The version in which G&C were in Lorien in FA was completely abandoned. Period.

Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, or you go by the latest version where they were in Eriador, they heard the summons sooner or later. If anyone fought, it must've been these two. Since Tolkien unambiguous stated the reasons why they didn't fight against Angband, both directly explicitly and indirectly explicitly. Now in the time of WoW none of their reasons of not fighting against Angband existed anymore, they were solved. The only way you can say they didn't fight in WoW is by assuming they were injured heavily and they were unable to fight (and that's a far of a wild and odd assumption).

This also seems to work a little bit better if one accepts the account of Galadriel and Celeborn if they come separately from the rest of the Noldor in Celeborn's ship; they came under the Ban but, presumably, not to the same degree of punishment. It would explain their survival (those that lived seemed to mostly be the more innocent Noldor).
 
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