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What did Fingolfin's people want to do with 🧝Feanor?

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So in the First Kinslaying Galadriel fought against Feanor. In Shibbileth it is said now she desired to follow him with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could.

When did she get that motive? Was it after the Kinslaying or after the burning of the ships? How do you think the situation went on with Galadriel after the kinslaying? NoME says she had a great fight with Feanorians at Alqualondë, yet she went into Exile anyway because she desired freedom.

My guess is that she wanted to kill Feanor, but she controlled herself and didn't take the kinslaying further into madness. She would've lost anyway, there weren't enough people at her side. But after Burning of the Ships she completely lost her **** and many people sided with her.

What did Fingolfin and Turgon want to do with Feanor when they got there to Middle-earth?

Why nobody did anything with sons of Feanor? Some of them even became more friendly with them!

I guess the death of Feanor was satisfying enough for Galadriel and Fingolfin and some others that they restrained themselves from killing his sons. They also probably blamed Feanor for everything and saw his sons as victims of their father's folly... More or less. And they let them be. Although, still, they didn't like them nonetheless. I guess Finrod played a great role in this peace making.

What do you think?
 
So in the First Kinslaying Galadriel fought against Feanor. In Shibbileth it is said now she desired to follow him with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could.
I never read about this. This is very interesting!

I don't think that Fingolfin would kill Fëanor. For a simple reason. Can you imagine that bloodshed if armies of Fingolfin and Fëanor fight together? Yes, Fingolfin's army would win, but with great casualties. Fingolfin would never allow that. He genuinely care about his people. The same applies to Turgon. His sorrow was greater than Finfolfin's, because he lost his wife on Helcaraxë, but still he wouldn't start a war. At least for a sake of his daughter. She would be in a great danger.

Why nobody did anything with sons of Fëanor? Fingon play great part in this. Another factor is that Maedhros passed kingship on Fingolfin. And after Fëanor death, Maedhros become the leader of Fëanorians. Maedhros is different than his father. He was far more reasonable, kind and wise. It must be difficult for Maedhros and Fingolfin to maintain peace. Maedhros must have great diplomatic skills.
 
Thank you for your great reply, Melkor.


I never read about this. This is very interesting!
Yeah Galadriel's fued with Feanor is one of my favorite parts of the Legendaruim.

From The Shibboleth of Feanor:

Feanor asks Galadriel to give him some of her hair but she refuses. "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,(14) were unfriends for ever."

"...opposition to Feanor soon became a dominant motive with Galadriel,"

She didn't use a specific dialect only to piss off Feanor and make his influence weaker.

"From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own."

It seems she saw darkness in him even when he hadn't turned THAT bad. He turned very ugly (in behavior) after he created the Silmarils.

"Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could."

Unfortunately it's not elaborated any further. But I guess Galadriel wanted to find a way to kill Feanor but he got himself killed before she would get the chance. As I explained with more details in the original post.

In Nature of Middle-earth we got new details: "Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë.
... She nonetheless went into Exile because though she did not love the sons of Fëanor she was personally proud and rebellious and wished for freedom."

I don't think she hated Maedhros and Maglor that bad, at least not until the Second Kinslaying. The sons of Feanor here is probably a reference to the ones who were always unlikeable. I would like to think she got her revenge by somehow aiding Dior and Nimloth to kill those hateful Feanorians. Curufin and Celegorm had kidnapped her second cousin and the daughter of her bestfriend, they had started chaos in the realm of her fav brother, and they had resulted in the death of her brother.

If they hadn't imprisoned Luthien, she would've arrived to Minas Tirith before the death of Finrod and she would've saved him.
 
She didn't. She and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin before fall of the Nargothrond.
Oh that's an early version.

Christopher Tolkien explains in Unfinished Tales:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing [which is now published in History of Lord of the Rings and People of Middle-earth], and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

Lindon south of the lune is a reference to Harlindon. Harlindon was in the East of the Ered Luin. Galadriel and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin in early Second Age in all Sindarin versions of Celeborn.

So yeah, there's a contradiction in the very same book. In LOTR 1 Celeborn was a Nandorin Prince of Lorien who met with Galadriel when she crossed the mountains of Ered Luin and Misty Mountains in First Age and came to Lorien. In the Appandices to ROTK Celeborn is a Sinda kinsman of Thingol, and he and his wife were living in Harlindon in SA ere they crossed the mountains of Ered Luin.

Also, fun fact, after Tolkien published that Celeborn is a Sinda and soon he wrote his Sindarin origin, he revised a passage about Galadriel's stay in Doriath. In Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 Galadriel stayed long in Doriath. But in the revised version, in Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"! The implication here is that Tolkien had decided that Galadriel stayed in Doriath until the end of it. Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. But this was changed in 1958.

Christopher Tolkien is of the opinion that Galadriel aided the Sindar greatly in the Second Kinslaying: "It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril - but this is nowhere stated."

I wholeheartedly agree with Chris on this.

So it's stated by JRR himself, Celeborn was present in the Ruin of Doriath and escaped. You might question why JRR didn't say Celeborn AND Galadriel escaped the Ruin of Doriath? Well we don't have the full context of that quote. But my guess is that in the context of this quote JRR was focusing on Celeborn, not Galadriel. The same way that in a draft it is stated Galadriel returned to Lorien, and Celeborn's name in this return to Lorien was not mentioned, the draft was more focused on Galadriel. But we know that Celeborn did return to Lorien.

Anyway, assuming Galadriel left her husband and the grandson of her bestfriend goes against her character. It makes her look like a total j*rk. She's "the fairest lady of the House of Finwë, and the most valiant." She's described as the only woman who is as valiant as the Princes of the Noldor. She is described as supa wise and supa in love with her mother's kin. She doesn't fear some Feanorians threat against Doriath. She had already fought them in First Kinslaying. In fact, she was ASKING FOR IT. This was her chance to kill Feanorians, as she long had dreamed, especially Celegorm and Curufin. In early versions she rejected Eonwë's offer to return to the West only and only because of her love for Celeborn who didn't desire to leave Middle-earth (in later version it was because of her love for all the suffered people). Why would she abandon her great love in Doriath against the threats of Feanorians? In the Fall of Eregion, she fought side-by-side with Celeborn against Sauron who was at his peak. Why would such a person flee from Doriath when hearing the threat of bunch of Elves who she is thirsty for their blood? I won't believe that she broke character.

Anyway, Tolkien's son very well knew these and he is very valid on this. His assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel aided in the escape of Elwing is based on a passage where it is generally stated that the survivors of Doriath aided in the escape of Elwing. Galadriel and Celeborn were the closest (known) surviving family of Elwing, and we expect from them to aid their family. Moreover, since they were the most powerful of all survivors they must've been the MVPs. Especially Galadriel who was "the greatest of the Noldor except Feanor maybe".
 
TheManInTheMoon said:
( . . . ) In Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 Galadriel stayed long in Doriath. But in the revised version, in Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"! ( . . . ) Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. But this was changed in 1958.

The statement "remained in Doriath" appears in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958),
because the LQ2 typist was copying a version of a rider that had been inserted into the QS manuscript.

And with respect to revisions (or whatever) that Tolkien himself made to LQ2 (specifically, the relevant section here, section 101), Christopher Tolken explained that JRRT wrote a note against the name Felagund (CJRT providing the note).

Melkor said:
She didn't. She and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin before fall of the Nargothrond.

Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings ["He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."], does not
actually refer to any specific mountains in any case.

The Road Goes Ever On does, but here the context is "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."
 
Melkor

I'm trying to give you some wiggle room for a possible in-story interpretation with respect to Celeborn the Sinda, since the fact remains that Galadriel's statement does not actually refer to specific mountains.

In a draft text, the mountains were thus: "For we have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young. And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the Seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat." JRRT, Galadriel, The Treason
of Isengard

Granted, draft text scenario. Okay, in any event, the ultimate scenario that JRRT published concerning Celeborn is that he is a Sindarn Elf -- so you might want to use this ambiguity to imagine (or at least
try to) a different "in story" meaning with respect to Galadriel's statement.

Or you might not.

It's up to you obviously.

Over the years I've seen several attempts to provide an in-story scenario here, which, even if some were not perfect, at least follow in Tolkien's footsteps (in my opinion) of trying to imagine something, and something that was beyond "scribal error" (or similar).
 
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She doesn't say she passed over mountains after going East from Doriath either ;)
She said "I passed over the mountains" in that quote from LOTR.

I don't consider LOTR as a only source. I just always think that she and Celeborn passed Ered Luin before the second sack of Doriath. But now I am little bit confused. Did she participated in the battle with Fëanorians in Menegroth? And if she and Celeborn help to escape Elwing, why this isn't mentioned anywhere? And why it isn't mentioned that they lived in Havens of Sirion for some time? Or on Balar. And what after the third kinslaying?
 
She said "I passed over the mountains" in that quote from LOTR.

Yes, but here's my emphasis: she doesn't say "I passed over the mountains" after going East from Doriath.

I don't consider LOTR as a only source.

Neither do I!

And not that you said otherwise, but all I'm trying to add here is that the reader is not obligated
to interpret what Galadriel says (in this quote) based on a rejected idea (Celeborn the Nando).

A rather obvious statement perhaps, but there it is :)
 
And if she and Celeborn help to escape Elwing, why this isn't mentioned anywhere?
The mention of Celeborn escaping the Ruin of Doriath is published in Unfinished Tales.


the second sack of Doriath
This event happened after the Fall of Nargothrond. Anyone who has any reading ability can understand Galadriel is saying she passed over the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. I have dwelt with him years uncounted because I passed over the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.


And why it isn't mentioned that they lived in Havens of Sirion for some time? Or on Balar. And what after the third kinslaying?
The same reason it isn't stated that Celebrimbor was there after the Fall of Nargothrond.

The later chapters of Quenta Silmarillion were never revised. If Tolkien had finished Later Quenta 2 you would've seen more of Galadriel and Celeborn and Celebrimbor.

But indeed, it is stated that Galadriel was present in Beleriand until the end of it.

After Tolkien published Celeborn is a Grey Elf in 1955 in Appendix B, in following years he wrote about Galadriel being in Beleriand until the end of it multiple times. From Nature of Middle-earth :
"...in the Second Age, when Galadriel refused to return to Eressëa, and passed over the Mountains."

"She became acquainted with Celeborn (a Sindarin prince, and kinsman of Thingol) in Beleriand. But there were few marriages or child-births among the Eldar during the War with Angband, which though it occupied 590 years, [13] was to the Eldar in “ageing time” only a matter of some six year-equivalents. She probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth, and when she (it appears, because of love for Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth yet) declined
to return West to Eressëa, [fn1] they passed together over the “Mountains of Lune” into Eriador. [14] She was then about 26 in age," Here Galadriel was 20 when she entered Beleriand. 600 years later, after the end of Beleriand, she had become 26 in age.

"Gilgalad became king in Lindon (under [?Suz[erainty] or ?Sway] of Galadriel) about SA 10–20 after departure of Galadriel and Celeborn."

"By the end of the First Age
– the overthrow of Thangorodrim and the ruin of Beleriand
– she had added (600-9LY)/144
= approximately 4 LY.
She was thus about 28 (or in mortal equivalent aged 21). Early in the Second Age she married Celeborn, and dwelt first in Lindon." Here Galadriel was 21 or 22 when she entered Beleriand. In one version crossing of the Helcaraxë aged her 1 age, in the other it aged her 2.

"Celeborn and Galadriel were not married (though betrothed) during the dreadful years of the “Battle of Wrath”, nor for some while afterwards in the confusions of the Second Age (i.e., not till SA 24)."

"...end of the First Age. For love of Celeborn (who did not wish to leave Middle-earth), at the downfall of Angband and the ruin of Beleriand she crossed the Eryd Lindon into Eriador."

"The best story seems to be that outlined under “Galadriel”, [15] in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron."
This is a reference to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in which they passed over the mountains in early second age.

There's also author published texts such as RGEO and Appendix B where it is stated Celeborn and Galadriel lived in Harlindon in early second age, until they crossed the mountains.

My excuse to reconcile Tolkien's conflicting statements in FOTR and ROTK about Galadriel is that: Galadriel crossed the mountains of Lammoth/Hithlum ere fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. It might seem weird that she's refering to the fall of Nargothrond when Nargothrond wasn't even established when she met him. But you have to remember, she's talking to the Fellowship here with Hobbits among them, this isn't a history class, this is rather a general way of saying A LONG LONG TIME AGO.

Either this, or Frodo made a slip in writing the Red Book, or the Gondorian editors did it, or Tolkien the translator of the Red Book made a mistranslation.
 
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This event happened after the Fall of Nargothrond. Anyone who has any reading ability can understand Galadriel is saying she passed over the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. I have dwelt with him years uncounted because I passed over the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.
I know. But we discussed her part in second kinslaying. Fall of Nargothrond isn't related to the second kinslaying, so I simply didn't talk about it.

Anyway, thanks for detailed elaboration. I was little bit confused at the beginning of the discussion, but now I understand.
 
The statement "remained in Doriath" appears in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958)
So what then? I don't understand. Did Tolkien revise the "remained long in Doriath"? Because Tolkien omitted the entire paragraph here and in the revised paragraph the word "long" doesn't appear.

And anyway, the writings even from 1959 and 1965 makes it very clear Galadriel was not willing to leave Celeborn. And we know Celeborn "escaped the ruin of Doriath". So Galadriel must have been there... This is besides to the fact that she loved Melian too much (and therefore her descendants) and she wasn't scared of Feanorians and desired greatly to fight them. She wouldn't abandon her beloved ones and miss this chance of fighting Feanorians.
 
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I know. But we discussed her part in second kinslaying. Fall of Nargothrond isn't related to the second kinslaying,
what is meant here is that in 1954 and earlier Galadriel was supposed to cross the mountains of Ered Luin and Misty Mountains before the Fall of Nargothrond and miss the chance of fighting in Second Kinslaying and so on, as is stated by Tolkien himself in People of Middle-earth. But in 1955 and later years Galadriel wasn't supposed to cross the Blue Mountains in First Age, now she crossed them in early Second Age. Until Tolkien decided that nope, she crossed them in First Age in latest version (1973). That latest version contradicts everything Tolkien ever published. And it is the latest version, but not the last. He probably would've made a lot of new versions again, as usual.

Anyway, in the versions which doesn't contradict ROTK Appendices and RGEO, Galadriel was present in Beleriand until its destruction in War of Wrath, and Celeborn was a Sinda Prince who met Galadriel in Doriath.
 
So what then? I don't understand.

I'm simply pointing out that your statement above (as I read the explanation in HOME) mischaracterizes the textual scenario. You wrote . . .

But in the revised version, in Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"! The implication here is that Tolkien had decided that Galadriel stayed in Doriath until the end of it. Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. But this was changed in 1958.

Christopher Tolkien did not note that his father's "remained in Doriath (version)" was a revision to the typescript of LQ2 -- and thus he did not explain that "this was changed in 1958".

Again the version you are referring to simply appears in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958),
and it appears there because the LQ2 typist was copying a version of a rider that had been inserted
into the QS manuscript.

An actual "change" (addition) made to LQ2 (section 101) was the note against the name Felagund.
 
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The history of Galadriel and Celeborn seems to me an issue Tolkien never successfully resolved. It’s one of the reasons, I believe, he never managed to published Silmarillion during his lifetime: it was too complex, and fitting all the pieces together into a coherent whole was beyond his (most impressive!) abilities in the time he had left to live. Christopher Tolkien tried in the published Silmarillion to fit together a seamless tale, but after that experiment gave up further attempts and displayed his father’s notes and materials as they stood, including all the contradictions and inconsistencies.
 

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