What did Fingolfin's people want to do with 🧝Feanor?

[TheManInTheMoon]

I never said anything about murder or killing. I said "revenge". Being his enemy and opposing him in every way is a form of revenge.

Same, kinda. Going to Exile to be oppose your uncle doesn't seem much legitimate for Manwë.

But anyway, as soon as this Galadriel found out about The Curse of Mandos she planned to leave Beleriand and fortify the East. And eventually did so soon. She would've done the same whether Feanor was alive or not. Galadriel is a Mary Sue here in this version. Unlike the other version she doesn't do deeds out of anger here. Her 'opposition' of Feanor here would've been far more peaceful and subtle, unlike the angry goth Galadriel version.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Same, kinda. Going to Exile to be oppose your uncle doesn't seem much legitimate for Manwë.

But anyway, as soon as this Galadriel found out about The Curse of Mandos she planned to leave Beleriand and fortify the East. And eventually did so soon. She would've done the same whether Feanor was alive or not. Galadriel is a Mary Sue here in this version. Unlike the other version she doesn't do deeds out of anger here. Her 'opposition' of Feanor here would've been far more peaceful and subtle, unlike the angry goth Galadriel version.

And I find both to be delightful. I dunno about her being a Mary Sue but I suppose she does start approaching that level (she is rather idealized, though she's missing a few other key traits such as being good at everything).

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

she's missing a few other key traits such as being good at everything)

She is, good, at, everything. You forgot her being the excellent pupil of all of the Valar?

 

[ZehnWaters]

She is, good, at, everything. You forgot her being the excellent pupil of all of the Valar?

Uh...yes, actually. Where was that? I don't remember her ever being a smith.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Uh...yes, actually. Where was that? I don't remember her ever being a smith.

From the latest version: "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar,"

She was supposed to be only the pupil of two Valar in the earlier versions: "Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor."

This is why she told Eregion that Annatar Aulendil "was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor". she herself was an Aulendil, yet she didn't remember this Annatar Aulendil from her time back in Valinor.

From the earilest conception, Galadriel was supposed to be the one who enriched Lorien with her skills. The "rustic" Silvan, as Tolkien puts it, weren't that bright, until Galadriel came around. Hence you see Silvan of Lorien are so much more advanced than Silvan of Mirkwood. Their gears are even more advanced than the chief dwelling of the Noldor's.

I love that Galadriel's Telerin energy is so strong in her. She created swan boats in memory of Teleri, she heavily prefers Silver material, and she actually associated herself mostly with Teleri people (Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri).

 

[Elthir]

Marginal note against the participants of the second host in the Kinslaying

That's a note to a later typescript of the Annals of Aman.

By Annals of Aman I was, and am, referring to the version that went hand in hand with the time frame of my second example. And since there is an AAM version, I had thought it was not necessary to have to also point out "not in every version" or similar, given that your response here changes nothing . . .

. . . in short, I pointed out two versions, one found in AAM, another in QS, and it remains so.

We don't see Galadriel at all in that chapter, until Helcaraxë. We don't know what was her part in the Kinslaying in that version.

There is more context to consider here, in any case.

In my opinion, anyway, according to this phase of writing (AAM early 1950s, LQ1 revisions to QS) Galadriel did not participate in any fighting at Swanhaven.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.

Later Tolkien decided to put Galadriel with Fingon and have her turn against Fingon and Feanor in defence of her mother's people. Later he decided that she was already at Alqualonde when Feanor came knocking.

Annals of Aman is Annals of Aman. That Annals of Aman was Christopher's source and he scrapped away that note about Galadriel part in the Kinslaying completely. The way he brutally butchered Turgon by trying to portray him as a sexist who doesn't give any care to his daughter. Chris scrapped away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Turgon in the Flight of the Noldor (can be found in Annals of Aman). And even then Chris failed to properly butcher yet another female character It slipped from him to scrap away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Gondolin in a later chapter of published Silmarillion, taken and inserted from Quenta Noldorinwa.

JRR Tolkien: look how my son massacred my girls!

 

[ZehnWaters]

Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.

Later Tolkien decided to put Galadriel with Fingon and have her turn against Fingon and Feanor in defence of her mother's people. Later he decided that she was already at Alqualonde when Feanor came knocking.

Annals of Aman is Annals of Aman. That Annals of Aman was Christopher's source and he scrapped away that note about Galadriel part in the Kinslaying completely. The way he brutally butchered Turgon by trying to portray him as a sexist who doesn't give any care to his daughter. Chris scrapped away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Turgon in the Flight of the Noldor (can be found in Annals of Aman). And even then Chris failed to properly butcher yet another female character It slipped from him to scrap away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Gondolin in a later chapter of published Silmarillion, taken and inserted from Quenta Noldorinwa.

JRR Tolkien: look how my son massacred my girls!

Tolkien's women were always cool.

 

[ZehnWaters]

From the latest version: "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar,"

Hm. Well this doesn't necessarily mean she was good at everything, only that she was an eager learner and very learned individual. Maybe she just learned thing academically.

She was supposed to be only the pupil of two Valar in the earlier versions: "Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor."

This is why she told Eregion that Annatar Aulendil "was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor". she herself was an Aulendil, yet she didn't remember this Annatar Aulendil from her time back in Valinor.

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about this. Man I need to go back and reread my books.

From the earilest conception, Galadriel was supposed to be the one who enriched Lorien with her skills. The "rustic" Silvan, as Tolkien puts it, weren't that bright, until Galadriel came around. Hence you see Silvan of Lorien are so much more advanced than Silvan of Mirkwood. Their gears are even more advanced than the chief dwelling of the Noldor's.

Hm. I knew she made the lembas (as was the Lady's job).

I love that Galadriel's Telerin energy is so strong in her. She created swan boats in memory of Teleri, she heavily prefers Silver material, and she actually associated herself mostly with Teleri people (Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri).

Me too. I've never really cared for Gold. White metals all the way!

 

[Elthir]

Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.

Well, this seems a far cry from your initial: "Galadriel fought in Alqualonde in all versions written by JRR himself."

Here you appear to agree that (again, in this phase of writing) the Finarfinians arrived too late, and: "Thus the folk of Finrod [Finarfin] had no part in the dreadful deed that then was done" (QS, LQS1), or from the opening to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn " . . . because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde."

Annals of Aman is Annals of Aman.

Yet some distinctions matter, as the one I made earlier. And at least arguably . . .

That Annals of Aman was Christopher's source and he scrapped away that note about Galadriel part in the Kinslaying completely. ( . . . ) JRR Tolkien: look how my son massacred my girls!

And I would also not have included this idea, as I said, at least as an editor of an actual book. And that decision has nothing to do with Galadriel being a woman, but rather with avoiding a (at least possibly) false textual pairing.

Obviously you may disagree with even that choice. I happen to think it was the right one, if conservative, as Christopher Tolkien could not know (for certain) if these later ideas were simply to be absorbed into the "Doriath scenes" . . . or if they might have altered them in some measure.

In the later note to the typescript to AAM, Tolkien added Finrod to the fighting at Swanhaven as well, along with Galadriel . . .

. . . Finrod being a male Elf of course. Christopher Tolkien left this out of the constructed Silmarillion too.

And as you appear to agree, Galadriel's discussion with Melian, Finrod's reaction to Thingol's words, Angrod's argument, were, in any case, all written when Tolkien imagined that these characters were not at the Kinslaying.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Finrod being a male Elf of course

Finrod was explicitly stated to be with Finarfin. To put him into Kinslaying battle, you needed to radically alter the passages about his part in the Rebellion completely.

all written when Tolkien imagined that these characters were not at the Kinslaying.

Yes but it is not stated that they weren't in the Kinslaying in Grey Annals. It is merely stated that they didn't have any part in the slaying of Teleri.

" . . . because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde."

Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.

Look, I know, I understand Tolkien only got Galadriel fighting idea in 1968. The same time he came up with Galadriel being super strong and of a great warrior's stature and skill and all that.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.

Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Well this doesn't necessarily mean she was good at everything,

She was "the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor". Feanor was a genius who could learn anything which he put his effort into. Same with Galadriel here. Her fall here was her being to genius and knowledge hungry.

Hm. I knew she made the lembas (as was the Lady's job).

No you didn't. The information in Of Lembas contradicted this. Until recently people assumed Galadriel taught her maidens how to bake lembas and then from that time on she herself didn't bake anymore. But after NoME got published, we learned that Galadriel didn't teach anyone except her daughter and granddaughter about lembas baking.

Did you know Galadriel's mirror is a direct parallel to Irmo's cauldron? And guess who was Irmo's best Maia... Melian. And who was Melian's best pupil and Aulë's best female pupil...

Literally everything in Galadriel's realm is a parallel to something from Undying Lands or Beleriand.

This always gets me: "She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memorial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening."

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?

People of Alqualonde are not Noldor. It's a reference to Teleri.

In such a brutal merciless assault, killing your enemy is unavoidable. I suppose Earwen fought side-by-side with her daughter. "Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi fought valiantly"
It's just a such a cool image.

 

[Elthir]

Finrod was explicitly stated to be with Finarfin. To put him into Kinslaying battle, you needed to radically alter the passages about his part in the Rebellion completely.

What text(s) are you referring to? QS and LQS1? QS here: "and at the rear came sorrowing Finrod and Inglor and many of the noblest and fairest of the Noldor; and they looked often backward . . ."

Is this the text you claim needed radical alteration? Something else?

Yes but it is not stated that they weren't in the Kinslaying in Grey Annals. It is merely stated that they didn't have any part in the slaying of Teleri.

shrug

Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.

Again what "later version", and what is the date? In any case, the quote I provided was from CG&C, which notes that she [Galadriel] -- daughter of Finarfin [first sentence] -- was welcome in Doriath, as her mother was Earwen and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying.

"No part" here can easily mean no part in the sense of LQ1, as in: she/they weren't there.

Look, I know, I understand Tolkien only got Galadriel fighting idea in 1968. The same time he came up with Galadriel being super strong and of a great warrior's stature and skill and all that.

And when Christopher Tolkien leaves out Galadriel fighting at Swanhaven, you essentially accuse him of misogyny -- or at least raise the idea of it -- and when he leaves out Finrod, out comes the argument that he needed to "radically" alter something (again, what text or texts specifically).

All while seemingly agreeing that the Doriath scenes taken up into the constructed Silmarillion were written when the Finarfinians simply arrived too late, providing, in my opinion, a perfectly acceptable reason to have left both Finrod and Galadriel out of any part of the fight at Swanhaven.

 

[ZehnWaters]

She was "the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor". Feanor was a genius who could learn anything which he put his effort into. Same with Galadriel here. Her fall here was her being to genius and knowledge hungry.

Did we necessarily get rid of her burning ambition to rule a realm of her own? That CAN be construed as being a flaw.

No you didn't. The information in Of Lembas contradicted this. Until recently people assumed Galadriel taught her maidens how to bake lembas and then from that time on she herself didn't bake anymore. But after NoME got published, we learned that Galadriel didn't teach anyone except her daughter and granddaughter about lembas baking.

So...she DID make the Lembas, then?

Did you know Galadriel's mirror is a direct parallel to Irmo's cauldron?

Did the Valar even HAVE cauldrons after the stories changed into the Quenta Silmarillion from the Book of Lost Tales? Or did you mean the mirror was a story element that was descended from Irmo's cauldron.

Literally everything in Galadriel's realm is a parallel to something from Undying Lands or Beleriand.

I knew the Mallyrn were. Not so much a parallel, though, as they were just FROM Valinor. Did they use Telain in Valinor?

This always gets me: "She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memorial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening."

Naturally. The purpose of the Rings were to retain things unsullied by time so I imagine that's why she took hers.

 

[Elthir]

Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?

I realize you might be looking for opinions here, but I'll just add that it's not stated that Galadriel slew anyone in these late ideas. It is not stated that Galadriel ever killed anyone at any point.

Point is: no specific references. Not in any text published to date.

And I'm aware of the texts about the Nissi's ability to fight, for example, or in what circumstances they would fight, but none of that will change the matter of explicit, certain references to Galadriel.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

Did we necessarily get rid of her burning ambition to rule a realm of her own? That CAN be construed as being a flaw.

She didn't have such desire in the version you are refering to, the Unstained Galadriel version.

So...she DID make the Lembas, then?

Yeah her daughter wasn't there in Lorien to make it. And her granddaughter as well, wasn't there. Galadriel personally made them herself. Also, we finally got confirmation on why Arwen didn't gift lembas to the Fellowship. It was simply because the cornes and recipes were only available in Lorien. And Elven ropes were only available there as well. What about Elven Cloaks then? I guess those were Lorien-only as well; only possible to create in Lorien. Or else Arwen would've gifted them to the Fellowship in Rivendell, surely Arwen must've learned the skill from grandma, and she would've put it to good use for the Fellowship if it was possible. I also love how even the Elven Smiths of Rivendell can't create a quality sheath for Anduril, but in Lorien you can find the best magical sheaths. And I love how it seems Galadriel was supposed to be the only Noldo in Lorien in earlier versions and she upgraded Lorien almost singlehandedly without the help of any fellow Noldor.

Did the Valar even HAVE cauldrons after the stories changed into the Quenta Silmarillion from the Book of Lost Tales? Or did you mean the mirror was a story element that was descended from Irmo's cauldron

This Irmo's device doesn't appear in later versions. But its resemblance to The Mirror of Galadriel is quite a nice touch still.

I knew the Mallyrn were. Not so much a parallel, though, as they were just FROM Valinor. Did they use Telain in Valinor?

I don't recall if they used them. But the parallel here is that Galadriel literally changed the name of Lindorinand into Lorien and Laurolindoranen (sorry for misspelling) just to resemble the name of Irmo's land and Yavanna's Golden Tree. Also, Lorien's other name is associated with dreams and phantoms, again a resemblance to Irmo. Also, Galadriel literally sang to create a forest. Like her teachers before her.

 

[TheManInTheMoon]

I realize you might be looking for opinions here, but I'll just add that it's not stated that Galadriel slew anyone in these late ideas. It is not stated that Galadriel ever killed anyone.

Point is: no specific references. Not in any text published to date.

Imagine fighting fiercely/heroically in desperate defence of bunch of not-so-strong-elves against a brutal merciless assault, and you somehow manage to not kill anyone. She did fend off some assaults. In one version she even killed enough to save one ship. I guess in the other version she saved more ships because in the other version she didn't flee in middle of the fight.

 

[Elthir]

TheManInTheMoon wrote: In one version she even killed enough to save one ship.

In what version did Galadriel specifically "kill" enough of anyone?