How long did it take to reach the Undying Lands from the Gray Havens?

[Phantom718]

When Frodo sailed West at the end of the book, it is written that the ship reached Tol Eressea "...at last on a night of rain...", which seems to sound like it took some time to get there. Even though it was removed from the circles of the world, if it was comparatively as distant from M-E as it was when it was part of the physical world, surely nobody could sail there in one day?

I'm curious because it was also written that Sam, Merry, and Pippin stood on the shore well into the night before going back to the Shire, AFTER describing what Frodo saw from the ship. Was this just some time discrepancy that Tolkien wrote? Or could Frodo have reached the Undying Lands in what the other hobbits perceived was the same day he left?

 

[Elthir]

My reading here is that JRRT describes what Frodo eventually saw, before returning to the Hobbits watching.

an irrelevant picture of a possibly egg-shaped ship

 

[Alcuin]

I think the “Straight Road” to Aman was supposed to have taken as long to traverse at the end of the Third Age as it did during the First and Second Ages: Arda was now curved, but the “old” way, open only to the Elves in specially built vessels hallowed for the journey, still remained in Ilmen, the air of Middle-earth.

I think it took several weeks – six or eight, though I am no longer certain – from Middle-earth to Númenor, and then another four weeks or so to Tol Eressëa, and a little longer to Alqualondë and the mainland of Eldamar and thus Valinor. From Letter 325,

They … set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from [Middle-earth] had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world.
​

There is a further idea, unfinished as it comes from “The Notion Club Papers” in Sauron Defeated, in which Lowdham, a presumed descendent of Elendil living in our year 1987, has a dream in which his ancestor Ælfwine and his friend Tréowine sail west beyond Ireland, where the air becomes thin. Just before Tréowine passes out, he sees the “round world … below…”

 

[Phantom718]

My reading here is that JRRT describes what Frodo eventually saw, before returning to the Hobbits watching.

an irrelevant picture of a possibly egg-shaped ship

Yes I'm aware, it just seemed a little disjointed the way it was written. Of course the hobbits could've watched the ship until they could no longer see it (which they did), but the way JRRT kind of dropped that in there after what is implied to be a long journey for Frodo just reads a bit clunky. Of all the times I've read the book, that part never really stood out to me until recently.

 

[Elthir]

Well, I guess it's up to taste. I don't find it clunky.

Also, the world was always round. Ask any Vala you like!

 

[Phantom718]

He had to setup the hobbits leaving the Havens to return to the Shire, which has a finality to it. So having them stand there, watching the ship, and then staying there into the night makes perfect sense. I just wonder if he flipped the order, describing that first and THEN ending with Frodo reaching Tol Eressea would've had the same impact. I know I'm nitpicking, but the way it was written made me wonder how long it took Frodo to get there, and if that scene would've felt different (but still worked) had he described the Hobbits' vantage first.

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

Also, the world was always round.

Why, I thought the world only became round after the War of Wrath? Before that, Arda was flat, in a sense.

Ask any Vala you like!

I would ask Námo; despite his dispassionate nature for others, he's softer to me (since I'm his and Nienna's Maia).

 

[Uminya]

I don't think there's enough evidence in the text to make an accurate guess on the travel time. I would conjecture that it takes a few weeks, but we have no accurate measurements of the distance to Aman from Middle Earth's shores (only rough figures: Tolkien was not a geographer). In Akallabeth it doesn't state how long the Numenorean fleet took to make it there either, despite it being significantly closer to Aman and it being before the excision of Aman from the rest of Arda.

 

[Olorgando]

Why, I thought the world only became round after the War of Wrath? Before that, Arda was flat, in a sense.

Elthir is referring to JRRT's post-LoTR Silmarillion writings, mainly in HoMe volumes 10 "Morgoth's Ring" and 11 "The War of the Jewels" ...
But as per the older legendarium, the world wasn't made round directly after the War of Wrath ending the First Age, but at the downfall of Númenor in the year 3319 of the Second Age - which continued for another 122 years.

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

Elthir is referring to JRRT's post-LoTR Silmarillion writings, mainly in HoMe volumes 10 "Morgoth's Ring" and 11 "The War of the Jewels" ...
But as per the older legendarium, the world wasn't made round directly after the War of Wrath ending the First Age, but at the downfall of Númenor in the year 3319 of the Second Age - which continued for another 122 years.

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

 

[Elthir]

Why, I thought the world only became round after the ( . . . ) Before that, Arda was flat, in a sense.

To quickly summarize:

before Tolkien finished writing The Lord of the Rings, he wrote an always-round-world version of
the Fall of Numenor (called The Drowning of Anadûnê, dated "Christmas Vacation 1945 to August 1946" [see, Hammond And Scull, Chronology]. JRRT read a version to Christopher Tolkien in the summer of 1946).

And in 1946 Tolkien wrote an-always-round-world version of Ainulindale too.

Time passes. Ideas fluctuate. New ideas form.

In Part Three of The Drowning Of Anadûnê, published in Sauron Defeated, in the section “(v) The theory of the work”, Christopher Tolkien refers to his father’s note “on the envelope that contains the texts of The Drowning of Anadûnê:”

So, written much earlier and preserved in an envelope, Tolkien now, in the 1960s, notes the following:

"Contains very old version (in Adûnaic) which is good – in so far as it is just as much different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probable in the supposed case:

1. Mannish tradition
2. Elvish tradition
3. Mixed Dúnedanic tradition" JRRT

So The Drowning of Anadûnê, a Mannish tradition in which the Elves of the West teach the Numenoreans that the world was always round, ends up fitting in perfectly with Tolkien's late ideas concerning the nature of Silmarillion writings (here referring to transmission slash authorship).

🐾

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

To quickly summarize:

before Tolkien finished writing The Lord of the Rings, he wrote an always-round-world version of
the Fall of Numenor (called The Drowning of Anadûnê, dated "Christmas Vacation 1945 to August 1946" [see, Hammond And Scull, Chronology]. JRRT read a version to Christopher Tolkien in the summer of 1946).

And in 1946 Tolkien wrote an-always-round-world version of Ainulindale too.

Time passed. Ideas fluctuate and form.

In Part Three of The Drowning Of Anadûnê in Sauron Defeated, in the section “(v) The theory of the work”, Christopher Tolkien refers to his father’s note “on the envelope that contains the texts of The Drowning of Anadûnê:”

So, written much earlier and preserved in an envelope, Tolkien now, in the 1960s, notes the following:

"Contains very old version (in Adûnaic) which is good – in so far as it is just as much different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probable in the supposed case:

1. Mannish tradition
2. Elvish tradition
3. Mixed Dúnedanic tradition" JRRT

So The Drowning of Anadûnê, a Mannish tradition in which the Elves of the West teach the Numenoreans that the world was always round, ends up fitting in perfectly with Tolkien's late
ideas concerning the nature of Silmarillion writings (here referring to transmission slash authorship).

🐾

Thanks.

But why do I feel that everyone knows more about Tolkien's works on this site than I do?

 

[Olorgando]

But why do I feel that everyone knows more about Tolkien's works on this site than I do?

In my experience, it's mainly @Elthir and @Alcuin that can talk one's ears off (post one's eyes off?) when they feel the need to clarify.
Maybe you've come across a few of especially Alcuin's posts where he starts off (more of less) "I really don't have time right now, so I'll keep it short" ...

... pages later ... 🥴

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

In my experience, it's mainly @Elthir and @Alcuin that can talk one's ears off (post one's eyes off?) when they feel the need to clarify.
Maybe you've come across a few of especially Alcuin's posts where he starts off (more of less) "I really don't have time right now, so I'll keep it short" ...

... pages later ... 🥴

It is in my nature to never keep my philosophical ideas short. As for the works of Tolkien, it may as well be even longer.

 

[Elthir]

Well, sometimes stuff gets complicated!

In any case, hope your ears are still where they were

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

In any case, hope your ears are still where they were

My burdens of the world are not where they once were, for they have increased in such unfathomable intensity as to baffle my very existence and purpose in life.

If that's not a delicate first layer to my philosophy, I don't know what is.