🧙Gandalf VS 👁️Sauron at Amon Hen

[d4rk3lf]

On the first few readings of LOTR, I completely missed this duel.

It was when Frodo is on Amon Hen hill, wearing a ring, and had a duel inside:

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

Later, Gandalf told Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas about this duel:

Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'

So, I think, we can pretty safely assume that person talking "Take it of Fool", was no other then Gandalf himself.

Now, what I am interested in, if Gandalf and Frodo fought Sauron himself, or it was the ring that wanted to expose Frodo, and Sauron wasn't even aware of the incident?
I kind-a find logical both versions, and can't decide which one is correct (maybe both? )

What are your thoughts on this?
Or any additional thought about this "battle", is more then welcome.

Cheers to all

 

[Ent]

It seems pretty clear it is Sauron and "The Eye". The 2 paragraphs just before the quoted portion clarify.

"But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir – he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood."

Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 401). HMH Books. Kindle Edition.

Any time the ring was worn, the wearer was "exposed" to Sauron.
Now it's true the ring on its own was 'seeking to return to its master' and seemed to behave in sly ways.
But your question "who did they fight" comes down to "Sauron himself."

There are some who attribute the "verily I come, I come to you" statement to the ring itself, as it seeks its master... that part of the battle is within Frodo, and is the ring's effort to 'be found'.

Frodo did very little fighting himself... needing to be protected and released from the hold of the eye, before he could make a "decision", balanced between the ring's desire to be found and Gandalf's push for him to take it off.

The real fight was Gandalf's. (imho).

 

[d4rk3lf]

Thanks bro.

What puzzles me in that scenario, is the vast distance Sauron managed to cross, and detect the ring, while he was unaware of Sam wearing the ring at his very nose (Minas Morgul).
Maybe because Sam had the ring in so short time?
Or maybe because at that time Sauron was fully focused on upcoming battle for Minas Tirith?

 

[Radaghast]

The Seat of Seeing works both ways. It can see vast distances but certain others are able to see it from afar as well. Mount Doom is another such "beacon", at least for Sauron. There is nothing especially magical about the place wherein Sam wears the Ring.

 

[Olorgando]

Thanks bro.

What puzzles me in that scenario, is the vast distance Sauron managed to cross, and detect the ring, while he was unaware of Sam wearing the ring at his very nose (Minas Morgul).
Maybe because Sam had the ring in so short time?
Or maybe because at that time Sauron was fully focused on upcoming battle for Minas Tirith?

I have the impression that Sauron needed an unimpeded "line-of-sight" to become aware of someone wearing the One Ring (which has inconsistencies with JRRT's ring-lore as a whole). Frodo was upon Amon Hen with an unimpeded line-of-sight to Barad-dûr. When Sam put on the One Ring, he was just below the Tower of Cirith Ungol (not Minas Morgul) - but that tower (and possibly part of the hill it stood on) was between Sauron and Sam, so Sauron had no line-of-sight. Sam took off the One Ring before crossing into Mordor - and becoming "visible" to Sauron with it on - to get to the base and front entrance of the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

 

[Ent]

Thanks bro.

What puzzles me in that scenario, is the vast distance Sauron managed to cross, and detect the ring, while he was unaware of Sam wearing the ring at his very nose (Minas Morgul).
Maybe because Sam had the ring in so short time?
Or maybe because at that time Sauron was fully focused on upcoming battle for Minas Tirith?

As we enter into the realms of "speculation" here too, rather than what's well defined, I have always speculated this:

The Ring purposely left Gollumn so it could be 'found'. It legitimately 'became' Bilbo's in its seeking to get back to Sauron.

The ring was legitimately passed from Bilbo to Frodo of free-will, (with a little help from Gandalf), in its seeking to get back to Sauron.

Gandalf's help to get Bilbo to make that ultimate free-will decision to do that fit into Illuvatar's plan.

However, it was not "legitimately" passed to Samwise by any work or decision of the ring, but was forced on him by circumstances, and Frodo was still the rightful 'possessor' of the ring. (And Frodo both reaffirmed and strengthened his acceptance of the ring's choice at the Council of Elrond.)
However, as it had not 'chosen' Samwise, it had no ability to work though him.,

And at the very end, when Frodo failed in the same way Isildur had, and took possession of the ring, Gollum intervened - but since the ring had previously 'chosen' to leave Gollum before, it was not his by the ring's choice.

Did the Ring betray Gollum into the fires of Mount Doom as some say? I think not.
It would never meke that choice. But it had no more control over Gollum than it did Sam, not having 'chosen' him again, but being with him due to 'circumstances'.

Thus, Gollum's fall into the fires of Mount Doom was entirely his own doing, in his frenzy of excitement at possessing again the ring that was 'stolen' from him.

(We could discuss the finding of the ring, and Gollum's killing of his 'friend' to take it as well...both being choices of the Ring rather than the individuals involved.)

Anyway, again speculation... but I do feel this is why Samwise was able to use the ring without being detected.

And clearly, even though Bilbo was 'chosen' by the Ring, he wore it countless times, and Sauron remained blissfully ignorant of the Shire, and where the Ring was. (Of course - at this time, Sauron was completely unaware the Ring had been found, and so was not in search of it at all as far as we know.)

Lastly, your point about Sauron's attention is well made.
When Frodo sat on Amon Hen, Sauron was eagerly and intensely "looking for hobbits and the ring".

At the time Sam wore the ring, Sauron was quite taken with the battles at hand, and had likely become certain the Ring was with some person of note by now, and among those who were coming to assault his front gate.

The moment Frodo put it on and 'claimed it as his own', Sauron's full attention left his massive hoardes of not so nice folks, which left them completely confused and bereft of guidance. He had a great deal of himself invested in the events at hand.

Quite frankly, the whole business of the ring and its movement speaks directly back to Illuvitar's words to Melkor that he could not sing any song contrary to that of the rest that would not be shown in the end to be all folded into Illuvatar's plans from the beginning.

So...
so much for my speculations.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

As we enter into the realms of "speculation" here too, rather than what's well defined, I have always speculated this:

The Ring purposely left Gollumn so it could be 'found'. It legitimately 'became' Bilbo's in its seeking to get back to Sauron.

The ring was legitimately passed from Bilbo to Frodo of free-will, (with a little help from Gandalf), in its seeking to get back to Sauron.

Gandalf's help to get Bilbo to make that ultimate free-will decision to do that fit into Illuvatar's plan.

However, it was not "legitimately" passed to Samwise by any work or decision of the ring, but was forced on him by circumstances, and Frodo was still the rightful 'possessor' of the ring. (And Frodo both reaffirmed and strengthened his acceptance of the ring's choice at the Council of Elrond.)
However, as it had not 'chosen' Samwise, it had no ability to work though him.,

And at the very end, when Frodo failed in the same way Isildur had, and took possession of the ring, Gollum intervened - but since the ring had previously 'chosen' to leave Gollum before, it was not his by the ring's choice.

Did the Ring betray Gollum into the fires of Mount Doom as some say? I think not.
It would never meke that choice. But it had no more control over Gollum than it did Sam, not having 'chosen' him again, but being with him due to 'circumstances'.

Thus, Gollum's fall into the fires of Mount Doom was entirely his own doing, in his frenzy of excitement at possessing again the ring that was 'stolen' from him.

(We could discuss the finding of the ring, and Gollum's killing of his 'friend' to take it as well...both being choices of the Ring rather than the individuals involved.)

Anyway, again speculation... but I do feel this is why Samwise was able to use the ring without being detected.

And clearly, even though Bilbo was 'chosen' by the Ring, he wore it countless times, and Sauron remained blissfully ignorant of the Shire, and where the Ring was. (Of course - at this time, Sauron was completely unaware the Ring had been found, and so was not in search of it at all as far as we know.)

Lastly, your point about Sauron's attention is well made.
When Frodo sat on Amon Hen, Sauron was eagerly and intensely "looking for hobbits and the ring".

At the time Sam wore the ring, Sauron was quite taken with the battles at hand, and had likely become certain the Ring was with some person of note by now, and among those who were coming to assault his front gate.

The moment Frodo put it on and 'claimed it as his own', Sauron's full attention left his massive hoardes of not so nice folks, which left them completely confused and bereft of guidance. He had a great deal of himself invested in the events at hand.

Quite frankly, the whole business of the ring and its movement speaks directly back to Illuvitar's words to Melkor that he could not sing any song contrary to that of the rest that would not be shown in the end to be all folded into Illuvatar's plans from the beginning.

So...
so much for my speculations.

I agree with a great deal of these speculations.

It is very interesting what you say about Samwise. I had always pondered how it was that he was not discovered by Sauron while he possessed the Ring, even though he uses it multiple times to escape being seen by Orcs. It has a great deal to do with the Ring and Sauron within it, I suppose. I always felt that if the Ring had been with Sam long enough, surely he would fall to the power of it. If the Ring chose him, surely he wouldn't resist it.

At the simultaneous time, I always had thought that Frodo was both pure and free in heart and mind of ill desires, and for this reason, he could bear the burden and not fall to the power of it. However, as we know, Frodo does fall to the power of the Ring when the end comes, and then it is ultimately Gollum and Sam that in a strange way bring about the victory for all Middle-Earth.

Sauron was very much occupied with other matters at the time that Frodo and Sam climbed Mt. Doom. Sauron was determined in taking down and defeating the heir of Numenor; Aragorn. And because of this, his mind was not with the Ring, nor his Eye fixed upon it. But, the Ring contained some of Sauron's dark and terrible force of malice, and for that reason, Sauron was bound to the Ring, and the Ring was bound in turn to him, and so when Frodo placed the Ring on his finger, Sauron knew.

It is very intriguing that Samwise did not receive the Ring from Frodo willingly, but took it in dire need and seems therefore able to pass under the radar unseen.

Thanks for your speculations... Apparently you inspired me to do the same....

 

[d4rk3lf]

At the time Sam wore the ring, Sauron was quite taken with the battles at hand, and had likely become certain the Ring was with some person of note by now, and among those who were coming to assault his front gate.

I think that Sam wore the ring much earlier, and not after the battle of Pelenor fields.
I might be wrong, but I think he wore it maybe before, or during the battle.
However the point stays, Sauron eye was fixed on the battle. ..

Nice speculations btw.

Frodo was upon Amon Hen with an unimpeded line-of-sight to Barad-dûr.

This is a great point, and yeah.. I never thought of the "line of sight", and it can explain why Sam was not visible to Sauron, and Frodo was.
Thanks...

LOL, when I think now of a famous theory with eagles carrying Frodo to the Mount Doom.
What better line of sight with Barad Dur, then eagle caring Frodo above the clouds?
So, Sauron could see from distance, and shot down eagles with fell beasts, or some magic, or whatever
(and yes, I know eagles were not there to solve issues with Sauron... but... just saying ).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The asperity of "Fool! Take it off!" makes it pretty obvious whose voice it is. 😄

T. A. Shippey makes the interesting observation that two other voices are heard: one, "Never, never!" is apparently Frodo "himself". But what is the one crying "Verily I come, I come to you"? Frodo? Maybe, but it doesn't sound like him. The Ring, calling to its Master? It's just one of the many ambiguous scenes in the Amon Hen sequence.

As you can imagine, there have been a number of interesting discussions on the subject; here's one that touches on it:

Post in thread 'Why would Sauron care if Aragorn had the Ring?' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/why-would-sauron-care-if-aragorn-had-the-ring.23906/post-519993

Some far-ranging speculations. I have to say I never saw any textual evidence for Alcuin's conclusion that Sauron saw Aragorn on Amon Hen -- but that's part of the fun of speculation.

 

[Olorgando]

I gave Appendix B "the Tale of Years", Section "The Third Age" a look again (must be the part of LoTR that I've read most often, even if mostly in relevant sections for a post).

1050
About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood.
c. 1100
The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought {wrongly (?)} to be one of the Nazgûl.
c. 1300
The Nazgûl reappear {where?}. The chief of these comes north to Angmar.
1975
[The Witch-king] vanishes from the North.
1980
The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. {sure sounds like all of them}
2000
The Nazgûl issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil.
2002
Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul.
2060
The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.
2063
Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. {emphasis mine} The Watchful Peace begins {sure sounds similar to the Siege of Angband}. The Nazgûl remain quiet in Minas Morgul.

Now if one assumes, as I do, that it was Sauron all along - back as far as the shadow falling on Greenwood - then Sauron was in Dol Guldur, facing Lórien, and about 100 miles south of the Gladden Fields, for about 1000 years without noting the whereabouts of the One Ring in those Gladden Fields. Hmmmmm.

2460
The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength {what exactly is meant by this? troop strength?} to Dol Guldur.
2463
The White Council is formed. About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.
2470
About this time Sméagol-Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains.

Time for another pause. We know that Sméagol used the One Ring for his petty meanness that got him kicked out of his clan by his Grandmother - he wore it! But for seven years, Sauron still did not notice this, about 100 miles from Dol Guldur? This looks like an inconsistency to me.

2850
Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir.
2851
The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
2941
Bilbo finds the Ring {and uses it repeatedly during the quest until the Battle of the Five Armies is decided}.
[Dol Guldur is finally attacked by the White Council, but Sauron "having made his plans" abandons it.]
2942
Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. {emphasis mine}

There is one aspect of the Four Great Rings - The Three of the Elves and The One of Sauron - that wearing it is a necessity for it to be effective - and noticed by the other holders of these Great Rings. When Sauron put on The One after having forged it in 1690 Second Age, "Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron." How to escape the domination of The One as Sauron specifically designed it? Erm, just take the Elven Rings off ...
Much later, in the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" in LoTR, Galadriel states "I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!"

One question that pops into my mind: Wouldn't then Galadriel have been able to tell that it was Sauron as far back as 1050 Third Age?

Wearing the One Ring should reveal its wearer to Sauron (and the Nazgûl - and the wearers of the Three Great Elven Rings ...). But there appear to be impediments of distance, line-of-sight ... countering power as Gandalf did to help Frodo on Amon Hen? Galadriel for Lórien? ...

But then JRRT never presented his "Relativity Theory of Great Rings" or "Quantum Mechanics of Great Rings" - as it was simply impossible. LoTR is High Fantasy, not Science Fiction - and even the latter, when asked how some to us incomprehensible technology works (which Arthur C. Clarke declared would be "indistinguishable for us from magic"), has to shrug and answer "quite nicely":

 

[Ent]

The asperity of "Fool! Take it off!" makes it pretty obvious whose voice it is. 😄

T. A. Shippey makes the interesting observation that two other voices are heard: one, "Never, never!" is apparently Frodo "himself". But what is the one crying "Verily I come, I come to you"? Frodo? Maybe, but it doesn't sound like him. The Ring, calling to its Master? It's just one of the many ambiguous scenes in the Amon Hen sequence.

As you can imagine, there have been a number of interesting discussions on the subject; here's one that touches on it:

Post in thread 'Why would Sauron care if Aragorn had the Ring?' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/why-would-sauron-care-if-aragorn-had-the-ring.23906/post-519993

Some far-ranging speculations. I have to say I never saw any textual evidence for Alcuin's conclusion that Sauron saw Aragorn on Amon Hen -- but that's part of the fun of speculation.

ON SPECULATION:

Life is naught but speculation from beginning to its end.
Will we live?
Will we die?
Will our airplane really fly?
Will we get our expectations?
Will our hopes be fully met?
Can we know that what transpires won't require things to bend?

As we share our thoughts together we reveal our current stand.
What we think.
What we know.
What we need for things to be.
What everyone must really see.
What the world looks like today.
But our path goes onward daily through such things as never planned.

We must go on holding loosely to the things we think are dear.
Why each thought?
Why that way?
Why require it must be so?
Why try to keep all things in tow?
Why can't things just fall in line?
Because life is speculation - every moment is unclear.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

ON SPECULATION:

Life is naught but speculation from beginning to its end.
Will we live?
Will we die?
Will our airplane really fly?
Will we get our expectations?
Will our hopes be fully met?
Can we know that what transpires won't require things to bend?

As we share our thoughts together we reveal our current stand.
What we think.
What we know.
What we need for things to be.
What everyone must really see.
What the world looks like today.
But our path goes onward daily through such things as never planned.

We must go on holding loosely to the things we think are dear.
Why each thought?
Why that way?
Why require it must be so?
Why try to keep all things in tow?
Why can't things just fall in line?
Because life is speculation - every moment is unclear.

Beautiful poem. The thoughts from my mind-- straight into your verse.

Incredibly done.

 

[Aramarien]

Aragorn says of Amon Hen, ' ....Amon Hen, the Hills of Hearing and Sight. In the days of the great kings there were high seats upon them, and watch was kept there." (FOTR, The Great River) Tolkien describes this place, (He (Frodo) was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor" ( FOTR, The Breaking of the Fellowship) Later in "The Departure of Boromir", when Aragorn is looking for Frodo, "He desired to go to the high seat himself, hoping to see there was something that would guide him in his perplexities; but time was pressing.......he looked out But the sun seemed darkened and the world dim and remote." Amon Hen seems to have something special about it, whether it enhanced the gift of sight for the Numenoreans or helped them meditate.

When Frodo went to Amon Hen, he was wearing the Ring. He purposely was soul searching or seeking answers and purposely using the Seat of Seeing to look out upon the world. He needed answers "feeling like a lost child...." I believe he was inadvertently using the Rings power, as he did at the Mirror of Galadriel when he saw the Eye of Sauron and perceived Galadriel's ring and even her thoughts about the One.

"At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadow: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear..... yet remote." (FOTR, The Breaking of the Fellowship)

At this point, Frodo is ACTIVELY looking and seeing signs of war. He was not just observing, but understanding what he was seeing. When finally he sees Barud-dur, Sauron becomes aware of his gaze. This is where Gandalf intervenes and struggles with Sauron, most likely to stop Sauron from discovering where the Ring is and who has it. " Take it off!Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!" The duel, was with Sauron and Gandalf. " The two powers strove in Frodo. He was between their piercing points.

Suddenly Frodo was aware of himself again, neither the Voice nor the Eye. Frodo, free to choose, took the ring off his finger. I think this point is extremely important. Gandalf still did not force Frodo to take the Ring off. Gandalf fought with Sauron to allow Frodo to CHOOSE of his own free will.

When the struggle is ove, Frodo's will was firm and his heart lighter. Not only does he choose to take the Ring off, but chooses to go alone because the evil of the Ring is already at work and he needs to leave before more harm comes to the company

As Frodo was going down the hill, he draws out the Ring and puts it on once more. Sauron does not perceive him at this point for two reasons, Gandalf just struggled with Sauron, and Frodo's will had resolved completely to destroy the Ring to save the others. Frodo is only wearing the Ring for the purpose of saving the others in the Fellowship. When Sam wears the Ring in Mordor, his motives are almost the same: to save someone else: Frodo. In addition, Sauron's mind and will were bent on the Battle of the Pelennor Fields at this point.

 

[Ealdwyn]

I pretty much agree with what's been said already.
What Tolkien's internal logic was on this I have no idea - although I assume it was very deliberate, as all his narrative decisions were.

It seems to me that there are a number of variables here:
1) How powerful Sauron is at any given point. We know that his power was growing throughout the Third Age, and as Master and Ring are intrinsically connected, then the influence of the Ring and the ability of Sauron to percieve its bearer is dependant on the extent of that power. This explains why he was (seemingly) unable to percieve Gollum or Bilbo, or indeed Frodo, until he began his journey, as Sauron hadn;t yet reached the full extent of his power.
2) Whether Sauron was actively looking for the Ring. It's important to the plot that he is susceptible to "diversions", as PJ described it. So it's canon that Sauron's focus at any given time affects how much he is aware of the Ring.
3) The focus of the bearer, e.g. Frodo on Amon Hen, who was actively looking towards Mordor.

In the case of Sam, Sauron was not seeking the Ring at that time and neither was Sam bending his mind towards Mordor. Sam finds Frodo in Cirith Ungol on 14th March, the same day that the forces of Mordor were focussed on Minas Tirith (the gates of the city are broken in the early hours of the 15th). It was also on the 14th that Sauron gave Denethor, via the Palantir, a vision of the city being destroyed, which led to his suicide on the 15th. So Sauron was pretty preoccupied at that time. Sam was also preoccupied in searching for Frodo, and so he got away with bearing the Ring relatively unscathed.

The only comment I would disagree with is about the Ring betraying Gollum in the fires of Mount Doom. That's not how I read it. It was the curse that Frodo laid on Gollum via the Ring on the slopes of Mount Doom, where he commanded Gollum to cast himself into the fire if he laid his hands on Frodo again. That's what seals Gollum's fate.

Hope the above makes sense. I've had half a bottle of red 🍷 🤪