🧝Galadriel in the Amazon Series

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

For the record, I've no current intention to try to write such a post (and try to be descriptive without opinion edging in)

You do not? You should! We want to see it!

 

[Elthir]

Such a post . . . well, as Merlin once said of the Dragon . . . "if you were to see it whole and all complete in a single glance, it would burn you to cinders."

Orrr . . . I'm too lazy

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

it would burn you to cinders

If I wanted that, I'd rather just run over to HP's Cafe and ask for a description of the ingredients in their special "Eggs Sothoth".

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

If I wanted that, I'd rather just run over to HP's Cafe and ask for a description of the ingredients in their special "Eggs Sothoth".
View attachment 14820

Oh no. More Egg humor....

I guess it is better than another controversial RoP thread...

 

[Annatar]

Given the status of these texts as not being published by JRRT himself, he was free to change his mind about stuff, even drastically . . . or to look at it another way, folks will look at the extant texts and give various opinions.

My approach is to give chronology (when Tolkien wrote a given text) it's due to try to find (if possible) JRRT's latest know idea . . . that is to say, barring actual publication by the author, I tend to go with later idea over earlier (unless the later conflicts with something already published).

This reminds me of another thread where these very points were discussed. In general, I agree with you.

However, my position may differ in this one detail, that I do not consider it entirely out of the question that, had Tolkien lived as long as a Numenorian, he would (in extreme cases) have subsequently brought out a few changes.
These changes, although not in direct contradiction to previous releases, would put the story in a very different light, like that weird thing about the One Ring that originally just made Bilbo invisible...
The fact that the original description of the effect (or non-description of the negative effects) is somehow strange and suspicious in retrospect, and led to a revision in the new editions post LotR, is finally explained very well by a trick also Middle Earth-immanent.

Nevertheless, it is evidence that one should not set published works as final fact, but rather view them as the version that has been handed down through the ages from a copy or retelling of the Red Book, etc., which can make any serious, subsequent change theoretically possible.

In addition, one could also learn from Christopher that JRR now and then jumped back to one of the earlier versions after several changes of mind (no matter which topic it was about, but prominent there are e.g. the orcs) also after advanced time and considerations.

Consequently, I would say the same: Yes, published works have the highest rank, then come in chronological order his unpublished versions.
However, one should always keep open the possibility that he would have ultimately still somehow decided differently (or yet again as before).

In any case, I wouldn't ultimately commit to a specific version on issues where JRR apparently wasn't definitively sure or ended up contradicting previously published works. There should be no problem in admitting different possibilities that JRR considered, regardless of the publication status and regardless of the time, even if these two "coordinates" of course influence the probability extremely.

Everyone may also like to determine these probabilities himself according to his own system, but an ultimate canon does not really exist there in my opinion, because the premise or definition of "canon" already excludes to consider (in this case quite) legitimate alternatives. At most, one could say that he thought this way or that way in the year XY...

But let's not get it wrong: I don't mean to say that everything is completely arbitrary and open to free interpretation, as is often unfortunately done anyway in film adaptations for various reasons.
In 99% of the cases we would probably agree, and in the remaining one percent I would say, yes, it is probably as your system provides, but I also keep open other possibilities - based on his texts and his way of thinking - of course as I interpret them, and depending on my knowledge of JRRT's works and statements, and aware that he has changed certain views over time, again based on his character and experiences. 😉

But anyway, that's certainly way too philosophical and nerdy for the topic of this thread and sub-forum.

 

[Elthir]

However, my position may differ in this one detail, that I do not consider it entirely out of the question that, had Tolkien lived as long as a Numenorian, he would (in extreme cases) have subsequently brought out a few changes.

I don't consider it entirely out of the question either, but . . .

In addition, one could also learn from Christopher that JRR now and then jumped back to one of the earlier versions after several changes of mind (no matter which topic it was about, but prominent there are e.g. the orcs) also after advanced time and considerations.

. . . I find that I don't get very far going down the path of possibility (in the following application, anyway).

If I post about the Finarfinian family tree for example, how compelling would it be for me to always end by noting the mere possibility that Tolkien might have changed his mind about Orodreth again.

Or, even if we are out of the mere "ether of possibility", for example (from Unfinished Tales): "It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving Man in Húrin's House in Dor-Lomin, into a Drûg."

Aha! Evidence! A reason to say something like: "if Tolkien had lived longer, he would have . . ."

But then again, if Tolkien is (as I sometimes put it) "not against changing his mind", do we really know Sador is a Drûg (as a fact) until JRRT does change the story -- and then again-again, do we really know until Tolkien chooses to publish this fact. . . as, before publication, it's possible that he'd revert back to the earlier idea?

Or something

 

[Elthir]

And then again-again-again, what compelling reason do we have to believe that Tolkien would not have ultimately transformed Sador into a Drûg?

And so winds the path!

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

This has strayed, rather far from it's origin.purpose as a thread... As so many do...

 

[Elthir]

Well, at least it's better than another bacon/egg derailment.

Waittaminnit!

Or is it? Maybe it was Tolkien's intention to ultimately transform Sador Baconfoot, the old serving Man in Húrin's House in Dor-Lomin, into a Yegg!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

What -- in his retirement?

I guess I could see that.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Oh no.... More eggs?

Here too?!

I feel like it is all I see...

 

[Lithóniel]

I feel like it is all I see...

Good. 😈

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Good. 😈

Oh no! You also?

 

[Elthir]

The Elves started it,
waking up Yeggs and
teaching them to speak.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

The Elves started it,
waking up Yeggs and
teaching them to speak.

No..

The TREES!

NOT the Eggs!

 

[Elthir]

Give in to the dark side . . . which in this case could be sunny side up!

 

[Starbrow]

They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. from The Two Towers

I guess that would include 🥚🥚🥚.

 

[Elthir]

Excellent reference Starbrow. Everything!

 

[Starbrow]

I guess you'd have to use "baby" talk for eggs.

 

[Lithóniel]

Oh no! You also?

Yes, I have turned to the dark side and you should too! EGGS ARE EGGSELLENT 🥚